Dougphysics, I personally have not read anything that would suggest what we are trying to do here does not work. I would agree that a perpetual energy machine does not exist. I would even agree that just pumping the output straight into a modern gas engine with no other modification would have no gains. But I have yet to read anything to suggest that using the HHO (I know, wrong term) to act as a catalyst to completely burn the Desiel fuel in our trucks will not work.

I think we are looking at a very narrow application of the technology which may not have been completely studied in the past.

This is looking more and more like a winter project for me.

 

I never got to see the offensive post

Perhaps my previous post came off as offensive when I stated it was ridiculously easy to do a proper study showing gains. That was really intended for the companies selling these products, they sell so many kits, yet don't send any in for some proper testing. They have nothing to lose if their products work.

I agree that it's much harder for the guy building one for his truck to go find a place and get it tested. There is also no financial incentive for them to do it unless they plan on marketing it.

I think it's always good having a skeptic around, it only makes you guys work harder to prove me wrong.

And again, my thanks go to thedaddycat for sending me his kit, and I hope it does work. This doesn't mean I think it will, but I would be a fool not to try it myself.

And RARE_1 , I agree that it may have not been completely studied in the past, which is to say that there aren't any concrete facts. You are developing something that really hasn't been proved to work or proved to not work. I would still place my bets that it doesn't and that people at MIT and the car companies would have tried something like this, but perhaps they overlooked it. Most of the studies with Hydrogen additives to the engine add a lot of hydrogen, and no oxygen.

 

For what its worth I'm still glad that Doug is here. I tend to place a high value on a skeptic's opintion if they are willing to listen to both sides. I now believe that this thread will be better off with him on board even if he does have some doubts.

Welcome to the thread Doug.

 

Thanks!!

 

dougphysics,
Did you look at the links in my earlier post about the MIT Plasmatron? Do you think it would be possible for one of us backyard mechanics to build one of these to try on our truck rather than waiting untill or if ArvinMeritor puts one on the market?

Thanks, Jim

 

I really don't know if it would be feasible to build one or not. I didn't see the details as to how it works. I don't know very much about plasma. What I do know is that most plasma devices operate at very low pressure, like a flourescent light. They also need very high voltage and sometimes a much higher frequency than 60hz. It may be a little dangerous mixing air and fuel and electricity unless you really know what you're doing. They were using either 15% or 30% hydrogen in their engines so that they could run very lean at very high compression. i.e. turbo diesels, most likely increasing the boost. I think this is how they got more efficiency, using much higher boost than what would be possible with regular fuel.

Diesels are more efficient that gas engines because they can run higher compression. M.I.T. was using 30% hydrogen 70% diesel to increase the octane rating so they could run even higher compression. Instead of building a whole new engine you could just add a turbo at high boost to get a similar increase in compression.

So it might be easy, it might be hard. I also assume that without modifying your engine to some degree you may not see any positive results.

Perhaps you should contact them, and tell them you are interesting in making your own prototype. If they already have it patented i'm sure they won't mind telling you all the details. If they haven't got a patent yet, they might not wanna give away their secrets.

 

its looking better,im getting exicted again, my plates are 3x6 wired +nnnnn-nnnnn+nnnnn-nnnnn+. tested on the truck,13.5 v.had some of the 6 tbls-2 1/2 gal mix left over from last test,volts between plates 1.8-2.1,amps after 1 hr. .07?? water temp 150-155, gas production 1qt in 50sec. still have aways to go.

 

The BIG difference between using (I will just call it HHO because it easy) is that we are injecting a substance that makes a more complete burn of of the fuel/oxygen mix that enters a cylinder.

In vehicles with an O2 sensor, the sensor will see the exhaust as lean and stuff in more fuel to compensate. The O2 sensor needs to be "fooled" into thinking the mix is fine in order to see a mileage increase. There are ways to do this. The trouble I see is that without a way to actually tell if there is a lean condition, you are going to damage an engine by running to lean over a period of time.

With our diesels and others, we don't have to worry about a lean condition. I have tried to find the research from some university I ran across that had good results testing what we are trying here. Sadly I have not found it and like a dummy, did not bookmark the site. I remember they said something about more than about a 28% mix had no more effect on what they were testing. I don't remember if it was the mix in the generator or what was being injected.

 

AGREE,,a nother point of veiw is always needed......i have acctually began to think it is not going to pan out as i hoped,,i see no positive results yet

 

Well you guys don't have to worry about getting anywhere close to 28%.

 

Here it is..hot of the press:

test bed Merc W123 non turbo

best previous results

100 mile GPS course 98%interstate 30%hilly
100%cruise control 30.7 mpg

first HHO test results


59 mile GPS course 92%interstate 70%hilly
cruise control not used 36.0 mpg

I expected a 25% potential improvement and feel I'm close on this my first system. I've already have some parts and planning done for my 4th system which is probably 4 months down the road...My E350 IDI after my other W123 car!


My next is the March Labs system which looks like it was produced by some young fellows just out of 101 whatever , they sure don't know how to run a 1/4"NPT tap...well you couldn't expect them to learn that in skule!

Just remember those that can do, those who can't teach... and where I come from ignorance of the law is no excuse either and same also might be said for theories.

There is some research here maybe a little more development and certainly implementation! I bettcha
alot of the March labs systems will never even be installed but "oh ya I got one of those and it sure is great."

FORD will be probably selling you one of those Plasmatron systems for $1599 extra on your next truck it will even probably required by the EPA..... clean air yah know. By the way the machinist in the MIT lab developed it not the prof (the machinist doesn't have to publish). To bad every prof doesn't have their own machinist..it keeps the hands cleaner and they actually can figure out how to do it.

UC Davis publishes ..note my brother and his wife retired from CRC Press formerly Chemical Rubber Co. and the last I checked they certainly weren't janitorial staff but back to what UC Davis publishes...take a piece of wood in each hand and proceed to the vineyard and properly deal with pests. My money is in Monsanto they have real products and no profs!

And outside of now having an idea why Tim hasn't been back you may find me on some other forum...this has been a pretty good (long) thread... have a good one and remember if you prefer the Saturday afternoon six pack ( a fruit jar and some wire ) might be pushing it. just Wikipedia: hydrogen embrittlement

See ya down the road!

 

Just so everyone knows I have talked to Tim(milehigh)he makes custom shuffle boards and said his business has skyrocketed and he has not had time to do anything. I told him that people here were asking about him. he said he would try to stop by and say hi. Who knows just relaying the message.

 

I decided to post this question as a new thread.

 

VBulletin gives you 5 minutes to edit a post after you post it if I remember right.

After the time limit has been exceeded, only a moderator, supermoderator or administrator can edit or delete a post.

 

Holy crap this thread has gotten HUGE , its been months since i checked in, lack of money for toys keeps me out of here alot .

who all here is running a hydrogen gas kit at this time, I am not going to read 300+ post since my last visit. last time I was here I was the only one who had any experiance with one on a truck, even if it was a semi with a 60 series detroit.

an update on that, he has since had to rebuild the motor due to bad rings, but they were bad to start with so we dont think the hydrogen had any effect. he never gained any milage, but could go 80+MPH with 80K on board over any hill Minnesota could throw at it so there is a definet power increase.

Diesel Rod