The HHO injection thread
Junior User
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 51
Likes: 0
From: Calgary, AB
I have a pickup But I would really prefer to mount this under the cab. I have an idea on how I want to set it up and I don't think a bed mount would work for it. I guess I will have to crawl under there and take some measurements.
I was thinking that I would have the plates cut like this:
___|**|
|*****|
|*****|
|*****|
|*****|
--------
And then I would have a tab (Alternating sides by flipping half the plates) to use for the bus connection if I went +-+- and if I go -|||||+|||||- I can just have all the tabs on the same side.
Do you think this is a good idea?
I was thinking that I would have the plates cut like this:
___|**|
|*****|
|*****|
|*****|
|*****|
--------
And then I would have a tab (Alternating sides by flipping half the plates) to use for the bus connection if I went +-+- and if I go -|||||+|||||- I can just have all the tabs on the same side.
Do you think this is a good idea?
Lead Driver
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,900
Likes: 3
From: Campbell River, B.C.
My single cell concentric design is officially a failure. Having not done the home work before designing it, its not a big surprise. It drew way too much amps even with lye electrolyte and output was no better than before (less than 1LPM). Wires were melting and it was obvious that it would be a poor performer at best and a fire hazard at worst.
Back to the drawing board.......
I have an old marine gas tank that is 1/16" thick stainless steel and its none magnetic (all my materials were not magnetic). I think that I will try and copy milehighhydroguy's large generator design. No mater what I do, it will be with SS plates instead of pipes. Much easier to adjust and this way I can get the proper cell count to bring down the voltage per cell.
A large case or 20L pail will also make it much easier to make changes in the shop. Oh well, the pipe design seemed to work so nicely in my head.
Time to crack out that plasma cutter and tear into that fuel tank......
Back to the drawing board.......
I have an old marine gas tank that is 1/16" thick stainless steel and its none magnetic (all my materials were not magnetic). I think that I will try and copy milehighhydroguy's large generator design. No mater what I do, it will be with SS plates instead of pipes. Much easier to adjust and this way I can get the proper cell count to bring down the voltage per cell.
A large case or 20L pail will also make it much easier to make changes in the shop. Oh well, the pipe design seemed to work so nicely in my head.
Time to crack out that plasma cutter and tear into that fuel tank......
Lead Driver
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,900
Likes: 3
From: Campbell River, B.C.
I have my plates ready for drilling. Made 14 3"x8" pieces. I'll use this smaller scale design for testing and if I get something I like I might make a larger scale version as there is enough material left. I'll try and be more thorough this time and I even have some litmus testing strips that I can use to accurately measure the PH of the water.
Something that I am wondering though, is if it might be worth it to put each cell in its own seperate bath of electrolyte. This would mean a seperate case for each cell and also will drive up the cost and complexity, but it would prevent any posibility of unwanted current going from one cell to another and needlessly wasting current. An old lead acid battery case might work well for this. Any thoughts on this?
Something that I am wondering though, is if it might be worth it to put each cell in its own seperate bath of electrolyte. This would mean a seperate case for each cell and also will drive up the cost and complexity, but it would prevent any posibility of unwanted current going from one cell to another and needlessly wasting current. An old lead acid battery case might work well for this. Any thoughts on this?
Post Fiend
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 21,285
Likes: 15
From: Nutter Fort, WV
One big advantage I see to using something like milehighs setup, you can change the wiring while the electrolyte is still in the tank.
With my plate unit in a pipe setup, I have to take everything apart completely to change anything.
With my plate unit in a pipe setup, I have to take everything apart completely to change anything.
New User
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Hey again,
Been doing some research on the water4gas books I got from Twtcad (thanks again) and Ozzie incorporates several techniques to stretch his miles. I’ll list in order with some thoughts and questions where appropriate:
Magnets:
Placed in line as the fuel line enters into the engine compartment. Belief is that it will ionize the fuel and make it easier to atomize. Have heard of people using magnets on home water, supposedly keeps scale down…what do you all think?
Fuel Heater:
My 6.0 PSD has it built in, thought is to warm fuel and helps it atomize. No need to discuss.
Fuel additives:
A mix of acetone, xylene and GP-7, 2:1:1 (in that order) oz per ten gallons of fuel. See link Acetone in Fuel Said to Increase Mileage? - Michigan Gas Prices. Thread has other links to search. Any way, Ozzie uses a mix of 1:1:1 for his gas engine, the 2 of acetone are supposedly better for diesels. Using the 2 acetone: 1 Xylene: 1 GP-7, it would cost about 90 cents per ten gallons. Some get benefits, others claim they don’t. Any one else using the additives and how has it helped?
PTFE:
Oil additive that coats the metal inside the engine for reduced wear and less friction (Xcel Plus). Less friction means more power going to wheels. I know that works cause I did it on a Honda I owned and I went from 30 MPG to about 35 MPG. Man I should of kept that car! Should you do that to a PSD and if you do, how many miles before you do it to be sure the engine is broke in?
HHO Generator:
Final gizmo to stretch that fuel, and the subject of interest.
One final comment for Milehigh. I was chatting with a buddy from work who owns a GMC Duramax. He has a Chevy site that he belongs to and when I mentioned HHO to him, he promptly shows me his site and says, like this guy here. Your Utube video, imbedded in a Chevy owners web site….You got to love that!!!
Been doing some research on the water4gas books I got from Twtcad (thanks again) and Ozzie incorporates several techniques to stretch his miles. I’ll list in order with some thoughts and questions where appropriate:
Magnets:
Placed in line as the fuel line enters into the engine compartment. Belief is that it will ionize the fuel and make it easier to atomize. Have heard of people using magnets on home water, supposedly keeps scale down…what do you all think?
Fuel Heater:
My 6.0 PSD has it built in, thought is to warm fuel and helps it atomize. No need to discuss.
Fuel additives:
A mix of acetone, xylene and GP-7, 2:1:1 (in that order) oz per ten gallons of fuel. See link Acetone in Fuel Said to Increase Mileage? - Michigan Gas Prices. Thread has other links to search. Any way, Ozzie uses a mix of 1:1:1 for his gas engine, the 2 of acetone are supposedly better for diesels. Using the 2 acetone: 1 Xylene: 1 GP-7, it would cost about 90 cents per ten gallons. Some get benefits, others claim they don’t. Any one else using the additives and how has it helped?
PTFE:
Oil additive that coats the metal inside the engine for reduced wear and less friction (Xcel Plus). Less friction means more power going to wheels. I know that works cause I did it on a Honda I owned and I went from 30 MPG to about 35 MPG. Man I should of kept that car! Should you do that to a PSD and if you do, how many miles before you do it to be sure the engine is broke in?
HHO Generator:
Final gizmo to stretch that fuel, and the subject of interest.
One final comment for Milehigh. I was chatting with a buddy from work who owns a GMC Duramax. He has a Chevy site that he belongs to and when I mentioned HHO to him, he promptly shows me his site and says, like this guy here. Your Utube video, imbedded in a Chevy owners web site….You got to love that!!!
Post Fiend
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 21,285
Likes: 15
From: Nutter Fort, WV
Magnets are more weight, decrease in MPG because of them.
This was tested by Mythbusters, busted.
The fuel heater only kicks on when fuel temps are low enough to gell.
Acetone and xylene are both very light weight solvents which contain very low BTU content.
Diesels need high BTU fuels to be more effecient.
A quart of motor oil would be better than a quart of acetone because of the BTU content of each.
Mythbusters did a test of acetone MPG increase story, also busted.
PTFE in most applications is not worth the cost.
I have seen several test results, and one product did show a modest gain.
The rest showed no gain.
I don't remember which was the best product, there were several and right now I can only think of Slick 50 and TMT.
Synthetic oil can show bigger increases than PTFE in my experience.
HHO was also tested by Mythbuster, and was a bust as it was tested.
They attempted to run an 8 cylinder gasoline engine on HHO alone.
They used a inner outer cylinder configuration with plain water and a PWM electric control.
There were almost no bubbles when operating.
And the car did not run.
They then used bottled hydrogen with a hose right into the carb, and the engine did run.
They went to test it again, the engine backfired and lit the hydrogen supply hose.
End of test at that point.
This was not what we are trying to attain, and this is why it failed.
The generator did not have enough surface area, and there was no electrolyte.
So there was very little gas production.
They were also attempting to run the engine on HHO only, not as a fuel suppliment.
This was tested by Mythbusters, busted.
The fuel heater only kicks on when fuel temps are low enough to gell.
Acetone and xylene are both very light weight solvents which contain very low BTU content.
Diesels need high BTU fuels to be more effecient.
A quart of motor oil would be better than a quart of acetone because of the BTU content of each.
Mythbusters did a test of acetone MPG increase story, also busted.
PTFE in most applications is not worth the cost.
I have seen several test results, and one product did show a modest gain.
The rest showed no gain.
I don't remember which was the best product, there were several and right now I can only think of Slick 50 and TMT.
Synthetic oil can show bigger increases than PTFE in my experience.
HHO was also tested by Mythbuster, and was a bust as it was tested.
They attempted to run an 8 cylinder gasoline engine on HHO alone.
They used a inner outer cylinder configuration with plain water and a PWM electric control.
There were almost no bubbles when operating.
And the car did not run.
They then used bottled hydrogen with a hose right into the carb, and the engine did run.
They went to test it again, the engine backfired and lit the hydrogen supply hose.
End of test at that point.
This was not what we are trying to attain, and this is why it failed.
The generator did not have enough surface area, and there was no electrolyte.
So there was very little gas production.
They were also attempting to run the engine on HHO only, not as a fuel suppliment.
Lead Driver
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 6,900
Likes: 3
From: Campbell River, B.C.
Magnets are more weight, decrease in MPG because of them.
This was tested by Mythbusters, busted.
The fuel heater only kicks on when fuel temps are low enough to gell.
Acetone and xylene are both very light weight solvents which contain very low BTU content.
Diesels need high BTU fuels to be more effecient.
A quart of motor oil would be better than a quart of acetone because of the BTU content of each.
Mythbusters did a test of acetone MPG increase story, also busted.
PTFE in most applications is not worth the cost.
I have seen several test results, and one product did show a modest gain.
The rest showed no gain.
I don't remember which was the best product, there were several and right now I can only think of Slick 50 and TMT.
Synthetic oil can show bigger increases than PTFE in my experience.
HHO was also tested by Mythbuster, and was a bust as it was tested.
They attempted to run an 8 cylinder gasoline engine on HHO alone.
They used a inner outer cylinder configuration with plain water and a PWM electric control.
There were almost no bubbles when operating.
And the car did not run.
They then used bottled hydrogen with a hose right into the carb, and the engine did run.
They went to test it again, the engine backfired and lit the hydrogen supply hose.
End of test at that point.
This was not what we are trying to attain, and this is why it failed.
The generator did not have enough surface area, and there was no electrolyte.
So there was very little gas production.
They were also attempting to run the engine on HHO only, not as a fuel suppliment.
This was tested by Mythbusters, busted.
The fuel heater only kicks on when fuel temps are low enough to gell.
Acetone and xylene are both very light weight solvents which contain very low BTU content.
Diesels need high BTU fuels to be more effecient.
A quart of motor oil would be better than a quart of acetone because of the BTU content of each.
Mythbusters did a test of acetone MPG increase story, also busted.
PTFE in most applications is not worth the cost.
I have seen several test results, and one product did show a modest gain.
The rest showed no gain.
I don't remember which was the best product, there were several and right now I can only think of Slick 50 and TMT.
Synthetic oil can show bigger increases than PTFE in my experience.
HHO was also tested by Mythbuster, and was a bust as it was tested.
They attempted to run an 8 cylinder gasoline engine on HHO alone.
They used a inner outer cylinder configuration with plain water and a PWM electric control.
There were almost no bubbles when operating.
And the car did not run.
They then used bottled hydrogen with a hose right into the carb, and the engine did run.
They went to test it again, the engine backfired and lit the hydrogen supply hose.
End of test at that point.
This was not what we are trying to attain, and this is why it failed.
The generator did not have enough surface area, and there was no electrolyte.
So there was very little gas production.
They were also attempting to run the engine on HHO only, not as a fuel suppliment.
In fairness to the mythbusters, there are those on the web that claim to be able to run an engine strictly on an HHO generator run off of the alternator. Maybe thats why they focused on that. But they covered so many different 'myths' in that episode that it was difficult to be thorough on each one.
They ran a really nice looking mercedes 300D on filtered WVO and called it confirmed. In reality it is possible but there are all sorts of problems that can happen from doing that over the long term.
I'm still waiting for them to do a PROPER revisit of the salami rocket.
Not really sure what acetone and xylene are supposed to do except maybe thin out the fuel and allow better atomization, but even if there was better fuel / air mixing it would be at the expense of BTUs of the fuel. This thinning of the fuel can't be good for the injection system.....
Fuel is not magnetic and neither is air. A magnet will do nothing for fuel economy except for the added weight. However there is such a thing as electro static polarization. Used most commonly in more advanced painting facilities. Its mandatory for powder coating, so thats how I know about it (all our railings are powder coated).
We know electro static can be applied to wet coating as well since all the auto makers use it by now. Many of the components in wet paint coatings are volatile organic solvents (petroleum based) so maybe this process can be applied to diesel. Its possible that this would cause an attraction between the fuel and air. Will this help mixing, but I have no idea if this will actually help fuel mileage, or if its worth the trouble.
Laughing Gas
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 910
Likes: 8
From: West-Central New York
Holy cow! Over the course of 5 days I have read the whole thread.
Great job guys.
Keep up the good work. I don't have spare cash for this project but I'm really interested in the outcome.
I'm glad none of you got stopped by the semantics argument.
Good luck!
Great job guys.
Keep up the good work. I don't have spare cash for this project but I'm really interested in the outcome.
I'm glad none of you got stopped by the semantics argument.
Good luck!
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Senior User
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
This vendor on EBAY shows some evolution!
YouTube - NEW MARCH-LABS HYDROGEN GENERATOR
I believe his setup is -xxxxxx+xxxxxx-xxxxxx+xxxxxx-xxxxxx+xxxxxx-xxxxxx+....his electrical hookup should be good this way....his heat buildup also good. Do EBAY search on"fuel cells". His EBAY listing shows several other good pics of this system!
http://
I believe his setup is -xxxxxx+xxxxxx-xxxxxx+xxxxxx-xxxxxx+xxxxxx-xxxxxx+....his electrical hookup should be good this way....his heat buildup also good. Do EBAY search on"fuel cells". His EBAY listing shows several other good pics of this system!
http://
Senior User
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 175
Likes: 0
If you go to his ebay listing he says 55 watts--4.5 amp approximate! He is not wasting a lot energy heating up the electrolye with his -xxxxxx+ per cell makeup. Your missing half the info by not going to his ebay site!! He has changed some of this info sence I first saw it last night and now I don't see the ref to 55 watts.
Junior User
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Need some help guys. I got my first unit built (like milehigh's). I am using 4"X8" plates spaced .180 apart. I coated the backs of them with a spay on rubber for tools ect. It says its good for electrical and all weather conditions BUT unless you can get it to stick better then I did dont try it. Mine started to peal off the edges after 15-20 min. of running. anyway the unit holds about 3 1/2-4 gallons of water I started light with 4 table spoons of 100% lye. hooked it up and thought something was wrong. no bubbles and only showing .02 amps. I dropped wires down to 1 cell and got bubbles and about 30 amps slowly jumped up to 2cells on up with the amps dropping every cell I added. added more lye and now up to 12 spoons and amps are only to 4-5 range with not many bubbbles. should I keep going???? rough estimate i would be up to 30-40 table spoons to get to 15 amps!!! Is that right or do I have something wrong??????
Junior User
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
Its hooked directly to the truck battery with it running. also milehigh didnt you say you went from 7cells to 4 and 3 cells because the amps were to high? 7cells should be lower amps then 4 and 3. If I hook it up in 4-3 it works good at 30-40 amps. I would like to run it all 7 cells as one.