kinda seems like were spitting on a fish dont it?

 

What about comparing against the amount of diesel fuel going in? Not all the air actually gets consumed under light load conditions. Not disagreeing with you, just trying to think aloud here.

 

It might work that way, but from what I have seen and read, I think the small amounts of hydrogen people are injecting is why there are no real improvements in MPG.

And I think anyone that is seeing an improvement is actaully driving with a different approach, which is the real reason the MPG is higher.

Although it is not usually down where we are, I think there is actually more hydrogen in the air than what adding 2 liters of hydrogen to 8625 liters of air amounts to.

I may be way off base with my thinking, but since no one has posted hard numbers like miles traveled, gallons of fuel consumed, liters of hydrogen injected per minute, driving speed and load info for several hundred miles of driving both ways and with and without HHO injection.
The only people I see posting numbers like that, are selling something, and they are usually leaving out a few of the key numbers in the sales pitch, probably so they don't wind up in hot water.

In the end, I do think it can improve the MPG of an IDI engine.
There is logic behind much of what I have read that tells me it will work.

But at the same time, I have to look at 2/8625 and say this can not work.

Correct me if I am wrong, but in a gasoline motor aren't you looking for something like 14.7 to 1 air fuel mixture?
So 14.7 pounds of air and 1 pound of fuel equals ideal mixture.

Without getting complex and looking at the difference in mass of hydrogen and air, just using volumes (liters) 8625 liters of air would have to contain 586.73 liters of hydrogen.

So since a 6.9 at 2500 RPM is consuming 8625 liters of air per minute, for it to run on hydrogen only, you are looking at 586 liters of that air being hydrogen every minute.

This is just a thinking out loud kind of thing though, but what it is telling me is 2 liters per minute is just a bad joke.

If I assume 70 MPH and 10 miles per gallon, I am consuming .11666 gallons of fuel per minute at 2500 RPM.
That is rather easy for me to get fuel consumption at that rate when I have a heavy load on if you want more numbers floating in your head.
So how many liters of hydrogen per minute equals .11666 gallons of fuel per minute with equal mass for each.

 

thats over my head dave,so it seems like we need to fill the bed of the truck with a gen & a 100 gl. water tank just to make a 100 mi trip, just thinking out loud

 

I think maybe to really test the merit of this idea as a control, it might be better to run a separate battery to power the generator (not charged off the truck). Its not the original spirit of the idea, but it "should" show if there are any benefit at all to this idea.

Although not everyone has a spare battery thats big enough. I could manage about 3.5 hours of my 12.8V lithium battery if the draw was around 60 amps. Just need a decent generator to go with it.

 

I do believe that even though the percent might be small, it not just Hydrogen, it's a mixture of Hydrogen and Oxygen and that "Hydroxy?" is VIOLENTLY EXPLOSIVE.

Trust me, I know!

That small but violent reaction is supposed to assist in assisting some of that unburnt fuel and air to burn.

The real question is how much of that "Hydroxy" does it take to really help.

 

Ok lets's look at this a bit more.
2 liter per minute HHO turns into .02318840% HHO to air.
1.333 liters of that is hydrogen and .667 liters is oxygen.

So that works out to .00772946% oxygen and .0154589% hydrogen.

Add that .00772946% oxygen to the 18% already in the air, well you see where this is going.


One Last Look at Compostion of Air:
Imagine the volume of air in a typical classroom that is 30 feet by 30 feet with a 10 foot high ceiling. (9000 cubic feet)
Also assume, we separated all the gases.
Oxygen would cover the room to about 2 feet deep.
Nitrogen would fill almost to the ceiling (another 8 feet minus a couple of inches).
Argon gas would fill a one inch layer over the whole room.
The remaining gases fill the last one inch.
Carbon dioxide has about the same volume of one student.
Neon is 1.5 gallons.
Helium would fill a one liter bottle.
Methane gas would fill someone's 1/2 liter bottle.
Krypton would fill a 12 oz soda can. Hydrogen would fill about half of a 12 oz soda can.
And xenon gas would have the volume of a pencil's eraser.

Without doing some more calculations to see how close it is, it looks like methane (CH4) that is already in the air has about as much hydrogen as a 1 liter per minute generator would be adding to the air in the engine.

Correction, the 1 liter per minute generator is producing 10 times as much hydrogen as there is existing in the air as methane.

 

this may be pointless,but i think it's fun building these things and skrewing around with them.i just hooked one up to my rideing mower.maybe now i'll see some results?

 

curious if there have been any updates on this. Several people stated they had ideas but no time.

I'm particularly curious in hearing from the IDI crowd. I recently got a 7.3L IDI attached to a crew cab long bed 4x4.

 

I never touched mine this summer except when I had to move it out of my way.

 

I've read somewhere that the diesel smell goes away when using HHO. That alone makes it worth while. It also means that all of the dino fuel that was not being burned is now being consumed, which translates into more energy to the flywheel.

 

There is a guy in Perth West Aust that has built two of these and has one at the machine shop I use,(the owner helped build it). The larger one makes around 110 liters of hho per min at 12 volt 36 amp and 240 liter at 24 volt 44 amps. The smaller one is on a toyota land cruiser 4.2l diesel. hes has run it for around 8 months in all sorts of conditions and see's around a 20-25% mpg gain. The other week he put it on a dyno and got an average 12% power increase with the hho. They are currently working on a metering system because at the moment the mix is to rich at low revs and the hho displaces to much air and makes less power down low but from about 1/3 throttle onwards it is all gains. I have seen the units and the dyno sheets and they are not trying to sell me anything so I see no reason for them to lie to me. He has fitted a heater core and small fan to the units to keed the electolyte cool as he saw the same issues with over temp as you guys. It has provisional approval from the transport dept for use in West Aust pending further tests in crash scenarios. They have fitted electronic controls and cutouts for over temp, lack of water, and roll over problems and seem to be on top of the current draw issues.
Dave I dont know how to do the maths but would 110 liters a min be any good for our engines?
I would probably not ever fit one of these units to my truck because of the difficulty of getting a replacement if things went wrong but am seriously considering getting a cheap turbo diesel for experimenting on.

 

I made and installed a Smack style booster on my 91 7.3 and I could not tell if anything changed for mileage or running.

I don't think that size booster puts out anything worth using on an automotive engine.

I made a torch to show my daughter how it works and got it to make a faint and rather weak 1/8 inch flame, but that's it.

To make enough to effect a 7.3 liter diesel it needs to be much bigger.

The question is how much gas will it take?

It should not take a whole lot of Hydrogen/Oxygen to clean up the combustion process.

When I popped the hood and saw the clear gas tube bubbling up liquid into the air cleaner, I unplugged it, removed it, and it has been in the garage since the summer.

 

My father's a master machinist who works with an inventor. They've developed a significant HHO system which supposedly does supply enough hydrogen to "increase power" and "fuel economy". This isn't a slap together yourself system. There are some significant metals used for the actual process. They installed it on an old mechanical diesel and after testing found that after letting off the accelerator, it didn't decelerate immediately. Almost like it was still throttling. I guess they've been working on some solenoids or controls to overcome this. I haven't heard much about it since a PSD guy from TX went up to their place and tried to actually steal the design. He brought a team of engineers and designers who took the entire thing apart and started dimensioning everything. I guess my dad caught wind of what was going on and they asked them to leave immediately. I'd like to give their system a shot on the truck I'm buying, but don't fully understand it yet and I'm not sure if it is in any way detrimental to the motor.

 

Gasoline and Diesel fuel burn quickly, somewhat like gun powder.
The big bang comes from the fuel/powder being under pressure and completing combustion before the piston/bullet comes out.

Oxygen and Hydrogen are more like Black powder and create a VIOLENT EXPLOSION!

Take a pinch of gun powder and black powder, put it on a safe surface and light them one at a time and you will see.

Too much Hydrogen and Oxygen will damage an engine.

Adding a little, or just enough, to ensure that there is little or no unburnt fuel in the combustion chamber my diesel trucks engine will without a doubt increase mileage and economy.
No matter how clean and warmed up it is, there is always "diesel" smell about it that tells me there is some unburnt fuel in the exhaust.
Also, the faster it burns the quicker and longer it pushes on the piston the more energy you get to use.