my valve recession is no good on the new heads the builder is going to make it right.

what is a good number on new heads? I’m thinking .020-.026” would be ideal?

Mine are .005-.015 all over the place. Oops

Houston we have a problem






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Blicharski 1989,
Your post is "sort of" ironic because tonight I was thinking about the head issues with the 6.0 in general as I was driving around. I've spent quite a bit of time trying to do research over the past few months about the 6.0 and discovering that there is likely a lot more to the issues than many people may have accepted. In short, I think a lot of people INCLUDING a lot of shops and/or mechanics or techs at these shops just automatically presume or determine that a 6.0 needs head gaskets and head studs are the only way to go and that's that. In fairness, in many cases, they are probably actually right. But, as I was doing my research, I discovered (based on other peoples' research) that there WERE STILL many problems EVEN AFTER head gasket and/or head replacements EVEN WITH head studs from the way it sounds.

So, here's where I was going with my thoughts as it relates to your recent posts.

1. How many people have the tools and time to do all of the testing measuring, checking, remeasuring or rechecking things such as engine block surface flatness or head flatness, valve clearance, piston clearance, and the gazillion other clearances that can or should be checked when rebuilding an engine?

In fairness, maybe it's not so much about the "time" because I suppose it can be argued that virtually everyone has the time to do the measuring or checking of proper clearances and etc. like you're doing here since it really boils down to just actually spending "the time" to do the work. So, if we take that out, maybe it's about the tools.

Okay, but how many people have the tools?

2. If you're having work done at a place, should you need to spend "the time" to check what they are "supposed" to be checking? Not to steer too far off the road here but on another recent post in the 6.0 section about replacing injectors and then it won't start or run right, it is turning out to be a previous person's error from the sounds of things. In short, the truck ran fine previous to doing the injector swap so my guess was they were just upgrading. I don't think the post has been up that long (maybe a week) but today I read that they took the valve cover off one side and found that all 4 hold down clamps for the injectors were loose and only finger tight. They ended up having to redo at least that side. I'm not sure if they'll redo the other side or not. If you care to know more, you can search the forum I guess.

So, what was the point of having someone else do "the work" if you are going to end up having to do it in the end anyway?

It seems counterproductive to have to do what you are paying other people to do doesn't it?

3. My presumption is that many shops and techs/mechanics aren't taking the time to do a lot of these things and as such, that's why there are still problems. Or, they didn't check things out properly prior to the repair so the "main" issue wasn't actually found and addressed properly. I'm not trying to be hypocritical here because I'm not saying I'm never ever guilty of this ever in my life. I've misdiagnosed something a time or two but I try not to be the type to just "throw parts" at a problem because that doesn't typically solve anything and gets expensive and in the end, that solves nothing but wasted time and money. So, I would rather spend time figuring out what's wrong because otherwise, I'll just be doing it all over again anyway (which is never fun since then you're just pissed at yourself for not doing things right "the first time"). But I'm not trying to make this about me and my decisions here. I'm thinking about others in general.

I'm not sure it's about time because if they've done clearance checks like this in the past and have the tools, then it's not like it needs to take days or hours to do a check of a few areas of a head or block and see how far "out of whack" it is. I'm not saying it would only take a minute or two at the most but is 15 or 20 minutes out of the question for someone who's done it regularly? Could we say that even 30 minutes "should" be enough time? So....wouldn't this be worth the time to ensure that an engine is going to be built "right" or at least "right" in terms of the opposite which would mean not checking these clearances and many more that results in things like you're dealing with here?

So, does this come down to laziness, ignorance, lack of skill or knowledge, or a combination for not checking these things prior to a rebuild? I mean, if we're talking many hours of additional time to check these things, then maybe there's an argument to be made (possibly) that it's a "bit" too much.

4. How many shops or techs are actually taking the time to do these things?

I'll admit, in the past when I've rebuilt engines, I didn't check heads every single time when they came back from a shop prior to putting them on unless there was something obvious that I could see. I mean, after all, when we get them back from the machine shop, shouldn't they be "bolt on" ready unless otherwise specified or discussed prior? Otherwise, what in the heck are we paying the shop for?

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I guess what I'm thinking is it's great that you have the tools and wanted to check things. Seriously, that's awesome. However, I don't think you should have to because to me, it's counterproductive. Should you check other people's work? Well, I guess the obvious answer is staring back at me or you with your pictures.

And so, it got me thinking to how many others are going to take the time to do the same things. And not just someone doing their own personal build but even a shop or tech that has their own place. Are they going to be spending the time to do these things?

I'm sorry this kind of rambled. It's just coincidental that I was kind of thinking about something similar to this tonight. How many 6.0 owners would have more life out of their trucks if they would have gotten them built "better" / properly? Thinking of that other post about the injector hold down clamps not being tightened is just one example of likely hundreds of thousands of similar things with repairs. And, on the 6.0 alone mind you.

 

valve recession is 0.5mm +/- 0.18mm (stock cam)
With stage2 cam 0.7-0.8mm

 

Yes, yes, you do.

Without looking at my videos on the subject, The short answer is you want 0.025"; some prefer to go to 0.030".

I did videos on valve recession, piston protrusion, and measuring piston to valve clearance, based on my conversations with a pro 6.0 engine builder and Geoff Bardal, owner of Colt Cams. I came up with a chart so people do not have to do the assembled engine/valve to piston clearance measurements.

My heads were factory 20mm "Commonized" heads and had a good consistency and within the OE spec of 0.0126" to 0.0268". However, I had one valve out of all lower than the others, which I wish I didn't have, and if it were such a hassle to get a machine shop to do one valve seat, I would have had it brought to the range of the others.

But, measured and in a running state, down to 0.018" valve recession still gives the clearance that Colt is comfortable with, 0.035".

It is also dependent on what the piston protusion is.

 

Eldridge, then a person like that has no business building an engine.

Enthusiasts don't need to own a surface profilometer; they need the machine shop to have one and provide the readout. And to give them measurements of the work they do. If you are not going to double check the work, within reason, you better have a damn good working relationship with the people you are relying on.

You propose a watered-down version of a motor-head I've been around for more than 50 years; a technician, given a chart to troubleshoot, given a part to install. By the time I was 16, I was buying micrometers and dial indicators to check the engines I was working on. I don't know of anyone serious about working on or hot-rodding vehicles who do not have the desire to blueprint an engine they are building, and having the necessary tools to do so.

Edit - it should have been a generic identifier

 

blicharski1989-Please continue to post your findings/photos and keep asking questions. Everyone will contribute and try and assist you along the way. Good catch on the varying valve protrusions.

Most people on these and other forums are here because they have a desire to do their own wrenching/work on their vehicles and learn more at the same time. Everyone has varying/different skill levels. Most are also continually purchasing more tools as they get older. My hat is off to anyone who wants and tries to do their own repairs. They have one tool nowadays I wish I had growing up-The Internet, so long as they can sift thru all the BS from actual facts. I had to do it the old fashioned way by buying car magazines/manuals(which I still have) and ask questions and made lots of mistakes.

People(hobbyists) that do their own engine work do have the desire to improve things and double check certain dimensions. Will they have access to a full range of tools in a machine shop, most likely not but any reputable shop should provide reports or even show some of the work in action so that they understand more and have a comfort level that things are correct that their hard earned money is paying for.

I work with all types of “techs and Certified Tradespeople”. The better ones strive to do better and truly UNDERSTAND and are passionate with regards their trades and take pride in their work. I find nowadays that too many go into something just to make a quick dollar and truly do not care. I find a lot of technicians fall into this category( what is the issue/follow the flow chart/replace the bad part ).

I fall under Jack’s category where I knew at the age of 17 that I wanted to go into the Tool & Die trade and started buying indicators/micrometers/tools at that age. I will never forget when a retiring toolmaker sold me a Browning top box/Interapid indicator/Starrett indicator & stand for $350.00 as that was all I had and he was asking just over $400.00 and him saying he would give a kid a break starting out. This was a lot of coin in 1985 when you are making minimum wage of $2.65/hour. I have tried to give back to other young kids over the years as well. I also worked on a lot of engines then and learned.(my favorite was a 1969 Z28 302 motor). Keep in mind my whole family was in construction and looked at me as if I had two heads coming out of my neck as a teenager.

My apologies for rambling on.

Rob

 

For sure it probably helps my training out of high school was for diesels and I worked for Cummins as a field service tech. I have built some ford windsors for drag racing. My first powerstroke but been around large engines for a long time.

it’s all good the guy who supplied the heads is making it right. These slipped out the door. I’m hoping to see .025-.030 recession as that is what I requested he shoot for when doing my replacement heads.

I think any serious enthusiast knows there is no warranty in racing. Never assume unless your willing to take a gamble.

 

I went nuclear in my comment because of the frustration of encountering so many "techs" who lack working knowledge and seem to expect to be assembly line technicians. It's the reason I have that little blurb at the bottom of my signature. While Russian sayings are tender now, "Trust but verify" comes to mind. There is too much money and labor involved in building engines not to double-check. Diesel's more so. Although I have lapses, we all do; we are human. But you need to try to do the best you can and deal with things you unintentionally overlook.

 

TooManyToys,
I'm not saying I disagree with you. All I'm saying is that I think there are likely a lot of people out there that aren't checking all of these things. And......I'm willing to bet that a lot of "people" that I'm referring to are people that ARE rebuilding these engines. I'm not trying to point specifically to shops that specialize in just building or rebuilding engines whether it be for race or otherwise. Obviously, THOSE shops better have the tools to do whatever measurements are necessary AND be using them to take those measurements.

But, I think too many people aren't and it's not necessarily because they aren't able to but I'd bet that it's possibly because they don't know to do these measurements in the first place. Perhaps I'm wrong.

But let's sit here and think for a moment and consider the typical Ford tech at a dealership or an independent shop tech that's putting these engines together or do a repair like this one. Are they really going to sit down with each and every single build and measure all of these clearances AFTER they got the engine or heads back from a machine shop? Be honest here.

As I asked earlier, if they are, then what was the point of paying to have the heads done or the engine machined at that shop then? Shouldn't THEY be the ones making sure they are right when they go out the door?

I understand the "trust but verify" methodology. I'm not commenting to argue that. But how often are people really sitting down and doing this stuff.

I'll give you just a few examples and one of them being the recent example in this post with checking the heads AFTER they got back from the shop. I'm NOT typing this to dog on the shop. I have no "dog" in that fight. The shop is taking care of it and that's great and the build can go forward. But let's just say that they get the heads back again and they do more measuring AND THERE ARE STILL issues. Then what? How many times is a person supposed to keep checking someone else's work? That was only one example and we could obviously discuss a likely endless supply of others.

The next one is yours with regard to your signature and I believe it was about the crankshaft being wrong in the Ford remanufactured engine you purchased so you had to get a completely different one (used I believe) so that it would spec out correctly. Forgive me for not knowing this measurement off the top of my head but I believe it essentially had what you called a "deviation" in stroke value from one end to the other. How many people outside of your are checking this? I'll even go as far as to ask how many machine shops or shops that rebuild these engines do this? Would it be all of them or even a high percentage say over 90%? Or, would it be lower at say 60% or under?

Anyway, back to what I'm getting at. How many "techs" that are rebuilding one of these engines or doing head work (gaskets or head replacement) THAT DOESN'T HAVE AN ENGINE SHOP is going to be checking these measurements? 50%? 20%? 1%?

In your case, unfortunately, you actually got one built from the manufacturer itself (Ford) that had a defect. Maybe it wasn't actually in Ford's factory but it was a representation of Ford as far as that goes.

As far as "checking" things, I'm not saying that a person shouldn't do the obvious visual inspection. One example could be seeing a box that's dented with head gaskets in it. A person shouldn't just take them out and use them without first inspecting them for bends or other damage. But, how many people are going to get out their microscope and inspect the gasket material to ensure that there are no deformations anywhere on that gasket PRIOR TO using it for assembly? We all have good eyesight but can it catch small problems? How many people even have a microscope?

In one of your videos, I believe you mentioned that you had 17 ASE Master Tech certifications and it was more than any of your co-workers. Forgive me if I'm misquoting you as that's not my intention. You're one of the "rarer" few that has done all that you have with the 6.0 and it's remarkable. What I'm suspecting is that it's even more so than many people that do so on a professional level day in and day out. You have more knowledge than most and that's great. It's probably unfortunate that a lot of dealerships or shops couldn't clone you. As a result, they are likely left with people that aren't as meticulous and/or thorough as you. So now the question becomes, are many 6.0 owners having continued issues because someone didn't take the time to recheck someone else's work after it got back from the machine shop like you would probably do?

If a dealership, independent shop, or just a random person orders a 6.0 long block, are they tearing the whole thing down so they can do clearance checks on everything?

There are obviously hundreds or maybe even thousands of channels about the 6.0 on YouTube. Just a few days ago I stumbled across one and I'm not referencing them to question their abilities at all. I'll even mention another one just to be fair. Left Lane Diesel was the one I came across recently. In one video, I noticed that they welded the cam sprocket to the camshaft. Perhaps that's super common and I just haven't gotten to that point yet or I just haven't noticed until the other night when I was watching one of their videos. Would that create a potential balance issue that could cause harmonic issues down the road? There are other channels like Powerstroke Customs. Are either of these shops doing some of these clearance checks AFTER they got heads back from a machine shop? Or, are they checking the stroke to see if there are any "deviations" like you did as well as other measurements that are crucial? I would be curious to know if they are.

 

I think your independent builders are checking and that your dealership is like any other corporate place. Get it in and get it out. Your independent guys don’t have the overhead burden and pressure that comes from a fast placed dealership where your only getting paid to assemble and shoot it out the door.

It’s good when you can find a machine shop you trust. Those guys are out there but they usually have a backlog of weeks into months. I think the dealerships could more afford just doing a long block swap in 6-8 hours than spending 20 hours blue printing an engine. There just isn’t the time or margin for them. One blows up whatever just warranty it out and move on. Technicians have been turned into parts changers largely. It’s not their fault but to pay their bills they have to do what the dealership wants. It’s a mess for sure. Dealerships aren’t also doing all the little tips and tricks to ensure longevity. Now they the 6.0 is many generations behind a dealership is the last place I’m going.

 

I have no interest in discussing what if, if that.

Be honest here? In my world, yes, you check everything; it's your build. Let's not sit and debate BS.

IMO, Ford corporate made a decision long ago for dealerships to mainly do swaps. They no longer offer voltage regulators so that is only the part changed, not an entire alternator. Or engine builds to whatever. I'm not even sure dealerships are doing transmission builds like they used to do, now just replacing with a corporate rebuild.

 

Update: machine shop called and said they finished up.

block cleaned, power honed (standard bore size), new cam bearings, main bearing bores checked for size/straightness. They did have to deck my block .004 and .005” which is a little more then I was hoping for but not the end of the world. I’m hoping with felpro gaskets and these new heads with the valve recession at .025-.030” I will be ok with my colt stage 2 camshaft

pistons got cleaned on the tops/rings lands for carbon. They said the wrist pin bushings looked good and they were all “tight”. I’ll probably measure the wrist pins and the bushings just for my own insurance.

waiting on main/rod bearings and piston rings now. Hoping to start the assembly in the next week.

 

Cool.

The wrist pin situation is unclear to me on these motors. Mine were fine (farm check since I left the pistons in the block). But some have good mileage and are fine, while others don't. It might be due to oil maintenance and long idle time. During idle, the squirters might not get all the oil up there, and wrist pins are the worse case situation in motors. Hot temps next to piston tops and not much angular rotation to get oil distributed. Just SWAGing.

That was why Fel-Pro added the extra 0.002" in the laminate, more thickness for deck cutting. While the inner layer is thicker by design, they could have thinned other layers to keep the total thickness the same as OE.

 

yeah judging by the condition of this engine it got great maintenance.

so with .002” extra clearance, effectively it’s like my deck was only cut .002/.003” I think those are numbers I can live with. I’ll definitely measure protrusion but I think we’re going to be ok here. Cometic does make 6.0 head gaskets with extra thickness id rather stick to felpro as they seem robust and have a good track record.

 

Were they able to just polish the journals?