https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/s...1#post12419441

 

so basically if we were to go hunting together...we would just go for a drive?

 

Check out thunderstruck for a bumper guard all in one. I had the ranch hand, folded like a cheap we you know. I replaced with one of theirs and pocketed some of the monies. As much as you drive might be worth it. A single deer would be hamburger, wash and go.

 

Is this really hands down stronger than a ranch hand???


It looks great, but the ranch hand is pretty stout also

I'm hijacking my own thread?!?! Wtf. Oh well

 

I was really gonna stay outta this, but were the black onyx ones, vr's made by Dana???

I was looking at the Dana site, reading about their head gaskets and this caught my eye,,, I'm posting this assuming the black onyx are Dana. This is straight from their site.


Designed right the first time????

 

Bingo!!!! Which only proves they are the same shape and size. If you look back, there is a pic of the tab of the hg in this thread. I think after all the stink,, vr, should change their name. The final nail in the coffin was that little "vr" in a circle etched into the tab of the hg... The gaskets might be all well and good, but does anyone want to try them out in ur truck? VR needs to find a way to redeem themselves. A way to prove to us we can trust their stuff. In my mind, a powerstroke with VR gaskets, might as well be an old dodge cummins with an auto trans.

Reminds me of a story::: when Christopher Columbus was sailing west, u better believe he had someone on the front of the boat with a lantern,,, to try and warn him if he saw the edge if the world (remember, everyone thought it was flat). Do you think he had that guy in the front on his next sail west?

Right now, VR is on their maiden voyage, again. Except their first voyage, they fell off the earth. Would you have got on the next boat west, if the first one disappeared?

There are things I will take a chance on,,, other things, I'm sticking with what's proven. Remember guys, I got half a million working miles on ford blues n arp's, and they weren't blown when I removed them. That's a "thing of beauty" as far as im concerned.

 

Anthony,
As per my call. I am happy your both ok. Better that some scavenger dog
get some deer meat than you two get hurt . The truck does not look as bad
as I thought it would be. Good think it was not a cow. Who makes that bumper
in the #814 post? It sort of has a Warren Classic Winch bumper look with some
brush guards added. I know that the Warren is one tuff puppy. If I can find the
photos of the crash that took it out I'll post them. I am going to try and send Mike the
your info again. Pizza was good and so was the Washington Chapter meet. I hope
you got in tonight and were able to get some sleep.

Sean

 

Thunderstruck.com their in salina KS. I had the grill guard only (Ranchhand) it folded and put the step thru the opening in the oem bumper smashing the trans cooler. If you have the whole bumper ya its looks pretty tough.

 

Dana/Mahle/VR doesn't need to change there name for anything. They make the majority of the OE parts on both the 6.0 and 6.4 engines including the pistons, gaskets, and bearings. I assure you that these gaskets are the same, straight from the horses mouth from the engineers at VR. As far as the part number is concerned, for obvious reasons you will never EVER be able to purchase a part with a Ford Part# out of another manufacturers packaging. It's just not going to happen, EVER! That however does not mean that they are not the same part, the pistons in the 6.4L's have a the Mahle logo cast into them with a Ford Part#, when you buy them direct from Mahle they are same piston with the Mahle logo and the only difference is the part# not the placement of the number or logo. Someone makes all these parts, Ford sure doesn't. Example, years ago I visited Wix Filters facility in Gastonia, NC and you wouldn't believe the brands of Filters that they make. Filters that some people would argue are a better filter that costs more come of the same line as a $4.99 Wix Filter but they just use a different color paint an a sticker nothing more. We made the video to merely prove we weren't taking anyone for a ride. If you don't like those gaskets, that's ok no big deal but we are confident enough to stand behind them for the warranty of the engine.

 

If they have a black coating, then simply put - they aren't the same! If they do have that coating, then what else has changed?

There is a post on another forum in which dimensional data was collected on Black Onyx gaskets and they were thinner in several important areas. That, along with the failure rate, is hard evidence. Many people NOW are saying that the Black Onyx are NOT Victor Reinz .............. is that true? If so, who makes the Black Onyx?????? Probably Dana/Mahle/VR!!

Maybe someone could supply a gasket to an impartial forum member to check thicknesses and do a PMI on it ..... ?

It is immaterial to me whether or not they produce OEM parts. Lots of companies supply to industry and then also make and sell parts of a lessor quality for the consuming public. It is a way to make more money based on a good reputation (sleazy way IMO).

The Ford OEM's work - VERY WELL, so until a TON of "guinnea pigs" get 300k miles out of their VR head gaskets (and post it up on these forums), then one needs to ask themselves ..... "Do I feel lucky?"!

just my .02 .....

 

Well, I think PMM has a point. If they were truly bad gaskets then they would have warranty issues. And I would think that if I were putting out something I had to put my name on, and warranty, I definitely would not use something that I thought would come back in the warranty time frame. The cost diff between this part and the OEM cannot be that large.

 

That is naiive IMO. How can you prove in a warranty claim that a falure is bad gaskets? So many variables that tye owner gets eaten up in what-ifs. The company can always say it was installation (miscalibrated torque wrench, wrong torque values, not enough lube, too little lube, etc). As far as costs go - most successful business owners pay CLOSE attention to pennies - that is why they are successful (example - Ford's fuel pressure regulator spring). Unfortunately, some hide behind the difficult task of consumers proving the root cause of failed parts.

With all of the repeat failures (and YES THERE ARE A LOT), why take a risk? The # of repeat failures are extremely low with OEM head gaskets and studs. There are TONS of threads on leaks with BO gaskets and studs (leaks that occurred SOON after the re-build). MANY rebuild companies are using ONLY OEM gaskets.

As far as I am concerned, anyone that uses a non-OEM gasket should make sure they get an UNCONDITIONAL guarantee from the shop doing the work - "Any future leaks, the job gets re-done for free - for at least 200k miles").

 

thanks for taking the time and spending the money to
respond here regarding this.

few of us here are materials engineers. fewer still have
knowledge current in gasket sealant formulation, to say the least.

in my case, when my head gaskets blew, and my learning curve
started on this engine, the first thing i heard was "use ONLY ford
OEM head gaskets"

the shop that rebuilt my engine echoed that, saying they were
rebuilding one engine every ten days with blown VR head gaskets.
the clouding of the issue with the parent corporation and related
naming issues is unfortunate.

you build a lot of these engines, and are confortable with the
results you've gotten with these gaskets, and i respect that.
i have experience with means and methods in my own field,
and i trust that experience over stuff i read on the internet.

the problem is, that there is a wealth of information out there
that anything that is not in a ford package with a ford p/n sucks.
like the issue with generic vs. brand name medications. some
folks just want the label on the box, and won't be satisfied without
it.

for this engine, with the problematic head gasket issue, would
it be easier to offer specific ford OEM gaskets, price it as an extra,
and to customers say the warranty you offer is the same on both,
but that if someone is that adamant, it's an additional $150, or
whatever price point works for you?

most folks here would drop the money for what they want. that
wasn't the problem here. the problem was being told one thing,
cracking open the crate, and finding something quite different.

the ONLY thing we are really buying that we can quantify here
is peace of mind. my 6.0 was over $10,000 out the door, and
about $2,000 of that was peace of mind. i know that.

the video was nice and all of that, and cost you some time and
money, but the engine will go back together and go off to a satisfied
customer somewhere. that wasn't the smart business decision.
you were just royally pi$$ed someone was hollering foul on an engine
you'd put together correctly, and cracked it open to clear your name.
i'd a done the same.

the smart thing you've done was taken the time to respond here.
most customers want to know two things in this order:
how much will it cost
when will it be done
they don't want to hear anything other than that, and more
info will make their eyes glaze over.

folks on here aren't quite like that. but, if they trust you, they will
sing your praises to anyone who'll listen, and most that won't.
to this group, you are selling trust.

you sold a lot of it today. the money will follow. good business
decision on your part. especially if you tweak your workflow plan
to put ford numbered head gaskets in the engine, and the empty
packaging in the crate for the head gaskets the fanatics demand
so they won't holler. $150 extra is nothing on an engine rebuild
in this price range.

based on what i've seen, i'd buy a long block from you, but i'd
want it to have ford OEM head gaskets, and if it showed up
with anything else, i'd holler like a mashed cat, and question
everything about the long block, 'cause you touched the third
rail of 6.0's..... head gasket failure.

thanks again for taking the time to respond here.

 

These are per-installed by them, how can they blame you for not torquing? I understand your point of how a company can and will blame you for failure. Yet I just don't see the point of a company using a 5 dollar cheaper part knowing it will cause a failure on something they have to warranty. A lot of people on these forums claim arp's are the best and nothing else is as good yet they have laid the claim that the studs they are utilizing are better. I guess only time and testing will tell. But look at how many are still using torque to yield factory bolts with no issues. Proves a lot. I think it comes down to who is doing the work and how precise and careful they are. These motors require attention to detail with so much torque and cylinder pressures. I just think a lot of people's frustrations and grief lie in poor mechanic workmanship. Flat rate or not. If you are not taking pride in what you do. It will show itself in your work.

 

Hit the nail on the head... You would not believe some of the support calls we even get from some Factory Trained Ford Techs or they atleast claim to be.