I figured 7 cells will give me 2 volts across each cell since the system should be at 14.2 volts while running.

 

This is something that I've had rattling around in my head as well. At the bottom of the page at the link below is a PDF file that describes Bob Boyce's design:

Bob Boyce's Electrolyzer Plans Available to All

He builds a unit very much like Dave is working on with some signifficant differences. He boosts total voltage to up around 160, I doubt that we need to go that far, and then he controls amperage. His position is that anything past 1.2 volts in a cell leaves the extra voltage doing nothing but creating heat, a bad thing. He then uses external electronics to control total current to each cell. He also converts to AC and makes the point that the pulse of the system helps create more bubles and dislodge them from the plates.

There is much more, but the issue of heat and relativly low gas production seems to be common here. I'm wondering if anybody working this thread has the electronic design background to go down a similar path. I have some ideas but between work and other projects I'm just not getting anything done here.

 

You are correct in what you said Regarding BoB Boyce. What you missed is he also made a 100 cell unit, A daunting task. Then he made a 3 phase circuit to excite the cell at resonant frequency with harmonics. He gives out the circuit and all of the information required to make the circuit. This is great, But I don't have the $500+ to invest. The units we are talking about are less expensive a simple to make. I aspire to make a Bob Boyce unit, but it will have to wait for now. His unit will put out 100L/Min. That is useless in a diesel. That much HHO would require the timing to be retarded to prevent detonation. This can't be done because the HHO relies on the diesel to initiate combustion, but the diesel will not ignite at the retarded timing that the HHO requires.

 

No, Marianna, I not miss the fact that he builds a 100 cell unit. I did not miss the last 35 pages of a 43 page document. I did not miss the part where he describes the difference in High and low voltage or single and series cell systems.
I did not miss the part where he describes his custom torroidal transformer and I did not miss the part where he provides sources for all of the electronic components.

I did miss the part where this forum stopped looking for different, possibly creative solutions to what appears to be a common problem.

 

Using the luminosity probe to set diesel timing, the combustion event should start at .5 to 4.5 degrees ATDC depending on the low or high altitude version and the IH or Ford version of the engine.
The luminosity probe actually sees the fuel ignite.
That timing method is usually refered to as the 6.9 method by most injection shops.

The 7.3 or pulse method senses the fuel pressure increase in the injection line on the way to the injector.

In the end, the timing is really set at almost the same point, but the method for getting to that point is the difference.

Since combustion is starting at TDC or slightly after TDC, 100 liters per minute should not be a problem on an IDI engine.

Listening to a Power Stroke and the ignition rattle, I think 100 LPM might be a problem there.

The battery cell relationship to the HHO generator is a good one.
And figuring 2 volts per battery cell is just like figuring 2 volts per reaction site in the generator.

6 volt battery, 3 cells
12 volt battery, 6 cells
24 volt battery, 12 cells

Check a D flashlight battery, slightly under 2 volts.

There is a relatioship to metal, electrolyte and 2 volts per cell in round numbers.

Engine running, alternator putting out 13.8 volts, battery charges and gets warm.
13.8 volts divided by 6 = 2.3 volts per cell.

Did not get to go shopping today, I am adding plates to give me over 6 reaction sites between the positive and negative plates.
I am also adding space and plates to seperate the reaction sites farther like twtcad has drawn.

The larger plates toward the center of the pipe, not sure on that becuase they are almost twice as big as the positive and negative plates.
I think that is going to cause the outer reaction sites to have increased voltage and the inner reaction sites to have lower voltage.

I gave that serious thought on mine since I am using 6" pipe, but I went with the same size plates in the end.

The voltage is controlled by what the battery and alternator supply.
The amperage is controlled by the strength of the electrolyte.

The power consumed is watts, which is volts times amps.

 

OK the figure I been reading is 10 deg ATC for 100% HHO. The diesel fuel may slow things down enough to allow it to work. I say go slow unless you have deep pockets. The output can be controlled by using a Pulse Width Modulating circuit ~30 bucks for 0-30amps at the turn of a ****.

 

The ratle in a powerstroke that sounds like advaced timing in an IDI is actualy caused by the extramly high presure at wich the fule is injected in a H.E.U.I. engine about 14,000 psi IIRC.

Timing could probly be changed via a reburned ecm or chip depending on year.

 

I'll believe 100L per minute when I see it. Using AC does sound interesting though, it could be a way to bypass some of the internal resistance.

 

The problem would be getting a high amprage inverter. They are kinda pricy.

 

$89.00 at SAM'S Club for 1000W unit. Bob Boyce uses an 800W unit.

 

Sorry, I haven't had time to play......life!

I can not really give any in site on the technical aspects of all this as it is really above me. But I am taking what I read as guidance and the help of my buddy here locally who has a lot more knowledge about this than I do and has already built one that produced a whole crap load more of gas than mine did. When I emailed him my original drawing, this is the email he sent back to me and obviously I think he made some good points. Which is why I made the changes I did and we are going to try it at least. The sheet SS is free (he has a bunch) just depends on how much it costs to get professionally cut......we'll see.

I'd like to recomend a few changes. You have pictured 5 cells. Running on an alternator's 13.7 Vdc, that will give you 2.7 Vdc per cell. Anything above 1.8 Vdc is lost as heat, and will eventually cook your water blowing steam into your engine. The rule of thumb: aim for 2 Vdc and expect some minimal losses. If you replace the 1/4 inch nuts with jam nuts, will it fit 2 more neutrals (1.957 Vdc)? I'd also really like to see the middle plates wider. By having all the plates the same width, it makes the path for current to go around the cell as short as possible. This is bad as it draws current without producing gas. By making each plate as wide as it can be, we add to the distance and reduce the wasted energy. I would make each plate 1/4 inch short of maximum, leaving 1/8 inch clearence on each side.


Man this is fun stuff..........My parents always told me I would one day regret not paying attention in school.....who knew they would be right....LOL I sure wish one of us could get one of these things going so we can start getting better fuel mileage!

 

I have been reading through these threads with great interest and I'm trying to build some workable plans. I'm going to start with the basics of a test system and work up from there to what would be my final plans.

Stainless is not a problem for me to source but I can't seem to nail down a final, confirmed design for the cell. It seems everyone is trying something different and no one has said exactly what works. I'll keep watching.

I do have a few questions that I have seen asked but never answered.

For those of you that have working prototypes, how much water is consumed?

Does the electrolyte level in the water stay constant or is some lost in the reaction?

Assuming the water is consumed and the electrolyte is constant, the ratio of the water/electrolyte solution changes, thus changing the amperage of the cell, no?

Given this assumption I was thinking of a final design that would have the Cell located under the cab, an outflow water line going to a second, much smaller container under the hood. This is where the gas would be fed into the intake meaning very little would be collected in gas form and stored, adding safety. This would be like a bubbler in other designs but liquid would travel all the way there, gas in the bubbles. There would be an output from this container that would allow the water to recirculate back to the Cell. The circulation would be created by a small, constant water pump. The circulation would ensure that heat buildup would be controlled.

That takes me to how to control the water level. Thinking of this I kept going back to a neat little device I installed in my Dad’s truck when I was a teenager. It was a device used to tell you when the windshield washer fluid was low. It was two metal prongs that stuck down through a hole in the top of the container. When the level got too low, current would not pass between the two prongs and an open circuit would be created. This would turn on a light on the dash, informing you that you needed to check the level. It worked really well.

My thought was to use this same idea but to have the open circuit trigger a washer pump attached to an external water reservoir to top up the water level in the primary system.

I see a couple problems with this idea:

1. Over engineering?
2. Would the metal in the water level monitor become part of the reaction?

Anyway, good work everyone! I will be leaning on you for the finer details, I’ve always been a “Big Picture” guy.

 

1. I'll regurgitate what I've read.Very little water is consumed. HHO is 1800 times the volume of the water that created it.
2. The electrolyte does not get used up. Some of it may pass to the first bubbler. It can be put back into the main cell so you should never have to add any.
3. The amperage in the cell goes up as the temperature rises. Some have recommended a PWM speed controller ~30 bucks on the internet (Bakatronics - Model Railroad Electronics).
As far as your sensing the water level, a passive system should be used . I would never put an electric current in the reaction chamber. Call me paranoid. I like big noises, but I like them somewhat controlled. A simple sight tube to see the water level should be all that you need. I understand that you can run for at least a week before adding water. The recirculating water system is way overkill. Just put a bubbler at the reactor and another at the engine. Using the minimum size line is an excellent ides. One unit is operated at 65 PSI, so I guess a little back pressure is OK.

 

I wonder how we can keep, doing this before the men in black show up???

 

here come the men in black..... the oil company defenders.... bobbin' my head to the beat from an old will smith song.....