Gas vs PSD
Posting Guru
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,674
Likes: 2
Exactly my point. Not saying that they cannot be supercharged, just that there are a lot of factors that have yet to be worked out due to the variable cam timing system.
Elder User
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 650
Likes: 0
From: WV
I don't think they will do it if people have to pay $10-15k for it. The market just won't support it.
Thread Starter
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Modular motor junkie
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 6,190
Likes: 8
From: Texas
I had to go dig up my article on the torture testing that all of Ford's gasoline engines endure before they're released for public sale.
"Besides meeting the performance goals
the Coyote had to pass all of Ford’s standard
durability tests. These dyno sessions
are incredibly brutal, always far exceeding
what any rational customer would do to
his engine, and occasionally surpassing
what is physically possible in a car.
We observed some of this internal
combustion water-boarding, and for
anyone with a foot-pound of mechanical
sympathy it isn’t pretty. Engines run fatigue
cycles equivalent to 62 Daytona 500 races.
Others replicate customer drive cycles
for 1,000 running hours to include 1,000
cold starts, plus hitting its peak torque
and power for sustained periods. That test
alone runs 100 hours a week for two and
a half months.
We witnessed another torture session
where the engine was run at WOT for
several minutes, the headers glowing just
a hint of red, then the engine shut off and
after several seconds of sitting, -20 degree
ice water was forced through the cooling
system. Frost formed on the test rig as the
engine was about frozen to death, then the
ice water stopped, the engine started and
after a handful of seconds idling was taken
back to max rpm, max load for another
heat cycle up to 225 degrees. Each complete
cycle takes about 10 minutes, and
the engine must survive days of these nonstop
thermal shocks.
Most incredibly, “It can’t be on its last
legs at the end of the test,” says Mike. “It
can’t be that it hasn’t seized yet, we need
to see crosshatching on the cylinders, no
full-face ring wear, leak down needs to be
below, oh, eight percent; it has to be very,
very functional and could go do it again,
quite frankly.”
That is more than sufficient proof that the gasoline engine offerings are "tough enough" for use in jsut about anything,and will NOT be harmed by "screaming" at any RPM that it's designed to run at.
That's 4,000 HOURS of runtime at the engine's peak HP RPM and also the exact same test ran at the engine's peak Torque RPM.
JL
"Besides meeting the performance goals
the Coyote had to pass all of Ford’s standard
durability tests. These dyno sessions
are incredibly brutal, always far exceeding
what any rational customer would do to
his engine, and occasionally surpassing
what is physically possible in a car.
We observed some of this internal
combustion water-boarding, and for
anyone with a foot-pound of mechanical
sympathy it isn’t pretty. Engines run fatigue
cycles equivalent to 62 Daytona 500 races.
Others replicate customer drive cycles
for 1,000 running hours to include 1,000
cold starts, plus hitting its peak torque
and power for sustained periods. That test
alone runs 100 hours a week for two and
a half months.
We witnessed another torture session
where the engine was run at WOT for
several minutes, the headers glowing just
a hint of red, then the engine shut off and
after several seconds of sitting, -20 degree
ice water was forced through the cooling
system. Frost formed on the test rig as the
engine was about frozen to death, then the
ice water stopped, the engine started and
after a handful of seconds idling was taken
back to max rpm, max load for another
heat cycle up to 225 degrees. Each complete
cycle takes about 10 minutes, and
the engine must survive days of these nonstop
thermal shocks.
Most incredibly, “It can’t be on its last
legs at the end of the test,” says Mike. “It
can’t be that it hasn’t seized yet, we need
to see crosshatching on the cylinders, no
full-face ring wear, leak down needs to be
below, oh, eight percent; it has to be very,
very functional and could go do it again,
quite frankly.”
That is more than sufficient proof that the gasoline engine offerings are "tough enough" for use in jsut about anything,and will NOT be harmed by "screaming" at any RPM that it's designed to run at.
That's 4,000 HOURS of runtime at the engine's peak HP RPM and also the exact same test ran at the engine's peak Torque RPM.
JL
Problem with talking about 30psi V10 truck is that the biggest topic of this thread would go completely out the window at that point. On a gasser IIRC i think you will see around 7% increase in power per pound of boost if all systems are up to the task. that's more increase than a diesel, yes.. BUT if you have a gasser running 30psi you would never be able to tow with it and don't try to tell me you can. it would have a lot of power, but the only use for the power would be going in a straight line with minimal load on it. As soon as you load that much power with a heavy trailer and the turbo spools it would be all over for your driveline. In my experiences with boosted gassers they aren't as calm as diesels can be. they are much more peppy. in other words the power isn't as smooth and the throttle is much more sensative making for less streetability.
My point was just that it can be built. I think 400 RWHP would be the most I would ever want. Even if the motor can take more, the rest of the truck can't.
I think with a really good tune you could get it just as smooth as a PSD.
Hotshot
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 10,008
Likes: 7
From: Austin, TX
If you are talking about in general, I will put my turbo Saab up against any diesel for smoothness of power delivery. I rode in a Benz S600 (5.5L V12 twin turbo with 625hp and 745 ft-lb) a month ago that would slaughter any diesel for smoothness.[/quote]
Just talking aftermarket there fella. I can get my PSD tuned w/ huge aftermarket injectors, huge compound turbos, lowered compression, etc and have it run pretty smooth and drive IF i didn't go too crazy on the compression. so it's not the OEM that is making it run this way anymore, its my tuner. just saying that a gasser with 700hp and turbo'd will be a lot more snappy and less tunable than a diesel. i can have a 700hp diesel that only makes 400hp in a tow program if i wanted to. very hard to do that in a gasser in tuning b/c your amount of fuel is not directly connected to the amount of power output or boost that you will make neccessarily like it is on a diesel.
Never said a diesel wouldn't destroy itself, but i do want you to do a little research.. there are PSDs, Duramax's, and cummins out there w/ close to 1000hp that do still do DD duty and some towing. in fact i have seen a Duramax w/ right at 1,100hp that is a tow rig and the same from a cummins as well. Of course that doesn't happen w/ the 7.3L b/c the HEUI, but Rudy's 6.4L put down just over 1,000hp and he was daily driving it for while too.. Don't think he towed anything, but i could be wrong.
Is that really good for it?
No, I would never build a 1000+ HP V10 and use it for DD and towing.
My point was just that it can be built. I think 400 RWHP would be the most I would ever want. Even if the motor can take more, the rest of the truck can't.
I think with a really good tune you could get it just as smooth as a PSD.
I think that is more reasonable, but a lot easier in a PSD. lol. i have 400hp, tow whenever i want, and less than $8k in the truck as a whole(including buying the truck). LOL go build it b/c i'm curious how well a V10 tows at an actual 400hp. i know my tow tune is pulled down to probably around 300hp instead of 400hp..
Oh and this truck has seen 1600*+ EGT on A LOT of drag strip runs.. trust me on that. Maybe you can come to San Antonio Raceway one night and check it out. LoL
Just talking aftermarket there fella. I can get my PSD tuned w/ huge aftermarket injectors, huge compound turbos, lowered compression, etc and have it run pretty smooth and drive IF i didn't go too crazy on the compression. so it's not the OEM that is making it run this way anymore, its my tuner. just saying that a gasser with 700hp and turbo'd will be a lot more snappy and less tunable than a diesel. i can have a 700hp diesel that only makes 400hp in a tow program if i wanted to. very hard to do that in a gasser in tuning b/c your amount of fuel is not directly connected to the amount of power output or boost that you will make neccessarily like it is on a diesel.
In general for gassers, every 14.7 PSI of boost will double the horsepower. Real world its often sometimes more then that because you'll have a free flowing exhaust, run higher octane fuel, better ignition curves, etc..30 PSI on a V10 would probably be around 1400-1600 HP. A 7.3 making that kind of power would destroy itself too trying to tow anything as well.
Is that really good for it?
No, I would never build a 1000+ HP V10 and use it for DD and towing.
My point was just that it can be built. I think 400 RWHP would be the most I would ever want. Even if the motor can take more, the rest of the truck can't.
I think with a really good tune you could get it just as smooth as a PSD.
Oh and this truck has seen 1600*+ EGT on A LOT of drag strip runs.. trust me on that. Maybe you can come to San Antonio Raceway one night and check it out. LoL
Thread Starter
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Modular motor junkie
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 6,190
Likes: 8
From: Texas
I think that is more reasonable, but a lot easier in a PSD. lol. i have 400hp, tow whenever i want, and less than $8k in the truck as a whole(including buying the truck). LOL go build it b/c i'm curious how well a V10 tows at an actual 400hp. i know my tow tune is pulled down to probably around 300hp instead of 400hp..
I don't see why I could not do it for $5,800.
EDIT: We are talking about RWHP, right?
Wonder how far behind you my stock V10 would fall in the 1/4 mile...
Posting Guru
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,313
Likes: 0
From: Sunny, Snowy, CO
Edit: The TRADES are what built this country. They also maintain it when idiots screw something up trying to do-it-themselves. I wasn't bashing Bill. I was bashing the unions that will constrict his paycheck for many years to come should he choose the route. After my retirement form the Army, I was going to be an electrician and had all relevant certifications required for me in Colorado. I went the HVAC route as we're non-union for the most part. the biggest problem I face doing any side projects is that I ALWAYS get underbid by the "Union". Once its out of warranty though, guess who they call to fix it right.
Bill, I wish you the best. Seriously.
Hotshot
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 10,008
Likes: 7
From: Austin, TX
[quote=bill11012;9055824]
I paid $4k for mine, had to do several repairs from the PO.. i will have to add stuff up later, but just off a guess a 7.3L SHOULD be 400hp capable for around $1500 through injectors, tuning, exhaust, 6637, and guages..
How much does your truck weigh?? it would be a fun little grudge match on a Friday night at the test and tune/grudge race night. I would guess you could cut a 16.0 1/4 if your 4wd. I could always race you in my tow tune.. ;-)
I paid $4k for mine, had to do several repairs from the PO.. i will have to add stuff up later, but just off a guess a 7.3L SHOULD be 400hp capable for around $1500 through injectors, tuning, exhaust, 6637, and guages..
How much does your truck weigh?? it would be a fun little grudge match on a Friday night at the test and tune/grudge race night. I would guess you could cut a 16.0 1/4 if your 4wd. I could always race you in my tow tune.. ;-)
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Modular motor junkie
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 6,190
Likes: 8
From: Texas
6K with Me in it, if the weight on the titles correct. I have yet to take it over a set a scales.
What do you run for time/speed?
What do you run for time/speed?
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Postmaster
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From: SE Texas
JL
Posting Guru
Joined: Aug 2008
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From: Sunny, Snowy, CO
Diesel wins!!
Hotshot
Joined: Mar 2007
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From: Pa
I thought the 3V V10 and 3V 5.4 both had VCT?
Logistics Pro
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,974
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From: Millersburg, OH
I should have elaborated and I honestly apologize to anyone who was offended by my post. I meant to say after the UNION DUES, he'll be makinga whopping $14.00 an hour. I'm sorry this is off-topic, but the unions had their place many years ago when worker's lives were in Jeopardy, but now we have common sense and OSHA. Yes, OSHA blows too, but they can shut something down without having a strike over it. Sorry, but the unions lost their relevance and were the demise of the American factory for the most part. Disagree all you want, but keep it civil. My daddy was a Teamster and loved it all the way to the grave.
Edit: The TRADES are what built this country. They also maintain it when idiots screw something up trying to do-it-themselves. I wasn't bashing Bill. I was bashing the unions that will constrict his paycheck for many years to come should he choose the route. After my retirement form the Army, I was going to be an electrician and had all relevant certifications required for me in Colorado. I went the HVAC route as we're non-union for the most part. the biggest problem I face doing any side projects is that I ALWAYS get underbid by the "Union". Once its out of warranty though, guess who they call to fix it right.
Bill, I wish you the best. Seriously.
Edit: The TRADES are what built this country. They also maintain it when idiots screw something up trying to do-it-themselves. I wasn't bashing Bill. I was bashing the unions that will constrict his paycheck for many years to come should he choose the route. After my retirement form the Army, I was going to be an electrician and had all relevant certifications required for me in Colorado. I went the HVAC route as we're non-union for the most part. the biggest problem I face doing any side projects is that I ALWAYS get underbid by the "Union". Once its out of warranty though, guess who they call to fix it right.
Bill, I wish you the best. Seriously.
Now back to your regularly scheduled programming...
Posting Guru
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 1,674
Likes: 2
I agree, but there is still a lot of room for profit even if they sell the systems for $6K. I know how much my cost is on a Procharger (which is billet, and uses the expensive 6061 aluminum- most compressors have cast parts, casings, volutes, etc.), and even if they do take a standard compressor, figure out all the ins and outs, and sell it for, say $6K or $6500, they would still be able to sell them and make a nice profit. The programs have all been written for the compressors, they just have to write the program for the brackets and stick on an off the shelf compressor. Procharger, for example, uses the P-1SC (in standard or reverse rotations) compressor for all of it's base line applications, and D-1SC for higher end systems. The only change came in 2005 when they came out with the P-1SC1. Vortech, Paxton, same thing. They all use the same compressors for different cars, just different brackets and tubing to make it work. Once they get past the cam tuning, you will start to see these systems hit the market. I give it six months max. You are right though, I hope they do not mark them up a ton of money just because they can. I have seen blowers for the S197 easily retail for $6K+, that is more than twice as much as the Mustang originally cost in 1964!