Gas vs PSD
Elder User
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 650
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From: WV
Which is great, when you are using your truck to make money, to have the truck in the dealer's shop for two weeks. While the repairs are free, losing business because of a down truck is not something most people can deal with.
Which again is why lots of utility companies (and LIPA and National Grid are not small companies), contractors, you name it around here have gotten smart and are using gas engine powered F450/550's. I've actually spoken to some fleet managers around here, and the diesel's complexity scares them. Rightfully so.
Which again is why lots of utility companies (and LIPA and National Grid are not small companies), contractors, you name it around here have gotten smart and are using gas engine powered F450/550's. I've actually spoken to some fleet managers around here, and the diesel's complexity scares them. Rightfully so.
I guess turbos have their advantages and disadvantages.
He did say he still had a few 7.3's left, but they where getting worn out (more so the truck than the engine).
Elder User
Joined: May 2010
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From: WV
What if your power went out, and the power company told you they'll fix your power as soon the Ford dealer fixes their 5 year old 6.4 cab-lifter?
If you are referring to a work truck as a truck to go out into the fields with, then yes I agree with you.
Senior User
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 407
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From: Humble, Texas
This has been an argument against the psd since the beginning of the thread. The psd option DOES NOT depreciate to zero the moment it drives off the dealer lot. There is going to be an asset cost associated with the ownership of a psd, but it is not equal to $5,000 to $7,000 option cost unless you keep the truck for a LONG time. If an owner sells the truck in three years, he'd get back a majority of the initial cost.
Postmaster
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,171
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From: SE Texas
JL
Elder User
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 650
Likes: 0
From: WV
I'm pretty sure he was referring to farm type "fields", not running a work/service truck. As a "fleet manager" I'll tell you right now, buying used trucks that are out of warranty for use in a work environment is ignorant and costly. We at one time, averaged well over $5K month in repair costs for our fleet. Since we started buying new trucks/vans 4 years ago-it has slowly dropped to nearly nothing. We only have a few trucks left in our fleet that are older than '05-mine being one of them. Our only real costs right now are maintenance and consumables (tires,batteries,etc).
JL
JL
Yes, but the previous post he was referring to was talking about fleet trucks, hence the confusion.
Elder User
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 650
Likes: 0
From: WV
This has been an argument against the psd since the beginning of the thread. The psd option DOES NOT depreciate to zero the moment it drives off the dealer lot. There is going to be an asset cost associated with the ownership of a psd, but it is not equal to $5,000 to $7,000 option cost unless you keep the truck for a LONG time. If an owner sells the truck in three years, he'd get back a majority of the initial cost.
You will also have to pay interest on that diesel. And yes you may recover a large portion of the cost, there something to be said for an option that is more than 20% of the MSRP of the truck.
Secondly, if the diesel looses anything, that is money lost that I did not need to loose. Take my examples I've mentioned in the passing: "that $7k looks a lot better in my 401k than my driveway." In one year since I bought my truck my 401k has went up 5% (was up 10%, but the market dropped down again). That diesel would have lost at least $500 worth, if not more now that the 6.7's are out.
Finally, you vehicles worth is never a guarantee. Lets say you keep your 6.4 for 5 years. In the mean time the 6.7 has proven to be a great engine. All the 6.4 cab lifters get traded in for 6.7's before there warranty runs out. The price of the 6.4's plummet because everyone wants the 6.7. That's just one example, there are many things that can affect resale.
IMO it's best to put the least amount into an uncertain and depreciating investment as possible. Hence the reason I got the truck with only the option I thought I absolutely needed or could not live without (i.e. CD player and cruise control).
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Hotshot
Joined: Jun 2007
Posts: 10,008
Likes: 7
From: Austin, TX
If you gear them correctly
Of course, one is not meant to be sitting there at peak torque for long periods of time, and the other is.
I would venture that a V10 IS meant to do that.
And again, this thread is about V10 vs. PSD - so throwing 250 HP rotary engines into the equation is, again, comparing apples to oranges
Of course, one is not meant to be sitting there at peak torque for long periods of time, and the other is.
I would venture that a V10 IS meant to do that.
And again, this thread is about V10 vs. PSD - so throwing 250 HP rotary engines into the equation is, again, comparing apples to oranges
comparing a V10 gas to a V8 turbo DIESEL is also comparing apples to oranges. y'all aren't even comparing 2 trucks with the exact same gearing/tire size... I'm ok with that b/c a diesel will always be superior to a gasser when it comes to pulling. and then you throw mileage in on top of that and it's even more superior. Wonder why absolutely NO big rigs use big gas engines to pull large loads... cuz they would get horrible mileage perhaps???? Mind telling me exactly why torque doesn't matter??? torque in most cases isn't as important as horsepower when your at speed. remember horsepower increases with wheel speed so what is it that gets you moving?? power output is expressed as the engine's torque multiplied by the rotational speed. so at lower rotational speed your basically working more on torque.. if your racing horsepower will come into play largely at high RPM/speed. ever wonder why you can dyno a truck in 4th gear and get one horsepower and torque number then dyno in overdrive and get higher horsepower numbers and less torque???
I'd love to see a V10 try to pull with a PSD with the gears the PSD came stock with.. 3.73's.. that could get pretty funny.
Elder User
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 650
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From: WV
Why not compare both engines with 4.88 then? the diesel will spend most of it's time shifting while the gasser will be pulling because of it's greater RPM range. To be fair, we should compare with what they came from the factory with.
Elder User
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 650
Likes: 0
From: WV
reminds me of Clinton asking them define "sex"I have to agree with Mountaineer on this one though. By superior I mean all around performance; everything from easy of pulling, mpg, etc.
Postmaster
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,724
Likes: 4
From: Rogersville, TN
If that was antifreeze that got into the oil, every bearing in the truck would need replaced. Every rod bearing, the main bearings, turbo bearings, cam bearing... basically the entire engine would have to be stripped and rebuilt.
It's possible went he piston went bad, it let some antifreeze by and into the oil...
It's possible went he piston went bad, it let some antifreeze by and into the oil...
Not everyone trades in their truck when the warranty runs out. Some people don't even buy trucks new enough to have a warranty. If it is going to cost that much to rebuild a 6.4 then that means there will never be one in my driveway. Personally I think the dealer was just trying to rip him a new one though. Like the guy in the 5.4 section that was saying his dealer charged him over $600 to change his spark plugs.
Elder User
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 650
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From: WV
Even if that was the case I still can't see if being $18,000. I can rebuild a stock Ford small block gasser(never rebuilt a modular, so I can't quote their price) for less than $2,000. That includes a new cam, pistons, rings, all the bearings, machine work to have it balanced and bored and all new gaskets. If it costs $18,000 to completely rebuild a 6.4, that is more than it would cost me to buy a low mileage v10 with a complete truck around it lol.
Not everyone trades in their truck when the warranty runs out. Some people don't even buy trucks new enough to have a warranty. If it is going to cost that much to rebuild a 6.4 then that means there will never be one in my driveway. Personally I think the dealer was just trying to rip him a new one though. Like the guy in the 5.4 section that was saying his dealer charged him over $600 to change his spark plugs.
Not everyone trades in their truck when the warranty runs out. Some people don't even buy trucks new enough to have a warranty. If it is going to cost that much to rebuild a 6.4 then that means there will never be one in my driveway. Personally I think the dealer was just trying to rip him a new one though. Like the guy in the 5.4 section that was saying his dealer charged him over $600 to change his spark plugs.
I admit $18k seems a little high. I would be curious to know how much a brand new turnkey 6.4 costs from Ford? But turbo's do add some complexity. I know a new turbo for example is around $3k for my Saab, not that I have had to replace it nor would I buy one brand new, but that is the cost of it. I think I could see a complete rebuild running about $5-6k for parts all brand new OEM from Ford. And generally parts and labor are equal, so $10-12k total sounds more reasonable to me for that.
You mean it doesn't cost $600 for new plugs?
The Saab dealer told me they wanted $645 for new rear brakes (pads and rotors, NO calipers) on my car. On the way home I stopped at advanced auto and bought rear brakes and rotors for $140 and changed them the next day.After the warranty is out, my cars and trucks don't see a dealer until I trade them in.
Postmaster
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,171
Likes: 12
From: SE Texas
Diesel owners typically have a broken mentality that their engine is superior simply because it allows them to pull a load in OD without downshifting. This simply means that the engine's configuration allows it to pull at that engine speed. A turbocharged gasoline engine will do the exact same thing.
Yes,the diesel will use less fuel-NOBODY is arguing that. But with the current cost of gasoline being $.20-$.40/gallon less than diesel, much of that fuel economy difference will be lost in fuel cost.
Compare the videos that we've already posted in this and other threads. Tom's 6.4L/3.73 truck and my 6.8L 3V/4.10 truck both accelerate from a dead stop up to the legal speed limit in comparable times. His truck can maintain that speed over hills better than my truck does simply because it has forced induction. A N/A diesel of the same displacement will not be able to do that-it'll behave the same as a N/A gasoline engine.
JL