I don't think you get it, Jeff.

This is FUN!

 

I guess maybe 100 pages ago it was.............but NOW
JMHO I've got too much to catch up on!

 

Naah! Just change your settings in your CP to allow more posts per page! Then enjoy!

I only have 53 pages. By your standard I have at least 47 more enjoyable pages to post!

 

I may need to call you out here, in a joking manner of course, but a serious question . My math may be wrong, so if it is, someone correct me. In your comparison of your 6.4 versus the 5.4 you have some data that doesn't match up to the formulas as well. About the 5.4 you said

About your 6.4 you said


From this I gather that you were pulling the hills in 4th gear without much a struggle and the 5.4 was struggling like crazy in 1st gear. Let's do some math now.

The 5.4 makes 350 lb/ft of torque at 2500 rpm, so let's just assume that its making 350 at 2600 as well. That means that at 2600 rpm he was making 173 hp at the crank. (350x2600)/5252=173. He was in 1st gear(2.71 tranny ratio) with a 3.55 rear end(9.62 final drive ratio). At 2600 rpm his wheels are spinning 270 rpm(2600/9.62). (173x5252)/270=3365 torque at the wheels.

Your 6.4 makes 650 lb/ft of tq at 1600 rpm, so let's assume it's making about 630 lb/ft by 2200 rpm. At 2200 rpm you are making 264 hp. (630x2200)/5252=264. You were in 4th gear(1.0 tranny ratio) with a 3.73 rear end(3.73 final drive ratio). At 2200 rpm your wheels are spinning 590 rpm(2200/3.73). (264x5252)/590=2350 torque.

Using the formulas for my trucks kel quoted me these numbers

Now, I got called uneducated and a young stupid kid for saying that my 7.3 was still pulling strong with 1743 torque and my 5.4 wasn't even though it had 2308 torque. So explain to me how your 6.4 was still pulling strong and gaining speed with 2350 torque and the 5.4 couldn't gain speed or shift to the next gear with 3365 torque.

 

I don't have time to check your calculations, but they look pretty good to me. Here are my thoughts...

I ran some numbers and saw how you got your 2500 RPMs from the 1st gear ratio and the speed. Remember for a minute that he did not have a manual transmission, and the torque converter does not lock in 1st gear. With the fluid coupling between engine and transmission, I don't remember exactly what RPM he was turning, but I think he was holding somewhere around 4,000 up the hill. There is some torque multiplication here with a torque converter, which gives him an advantage, but because the turbine output shaft is spinning slower than the input shaft, there is no horsepower increase. So he was actually pushing somewhere around 250 HP there. Upshifting was out of the question because to upshift would have put his engine back down to around 3,000 RPMs, where it would only make 199 HP, which would have not been enough to hold that much speed up that grade.

This type of environment is also where a high-torque turbodiesel really shines. At WOT in 1st gear, I'm going about 20 MPH. At 3,000 RPMs, pushing 350 HP. Upshift to second, and I'm still around 2,600 RPMs. At which RPM I'm turning somewhere in the neighborhood of 630 ft-lbs and 311 HP. 3,200 RPMs in this gear would put me somewhere around 32 MPH. Upshift again to 3rd gear, and I'm still pushing more than 300 HP to keep me chugging up that hill.

The fact that 2/3rds of my RPM range involve me pushing over 250 HP combined with my 5-speed auto give my truck a huge advantage. Now if you were to compare with a closer match to my truck, say with a 3V V10 things would have been much closer. Launch with the V10 would have been slower due to the low end torque(and POWER!) deficit, but once it climbed up past 3,500 RPMs, I think it would have been very close.

So yes, I stand by the fact that at 5,000 RPMs at WOT the 5.4L engine pulls nearly as hard as my 6.4. If you had a 6-speed close ratio transmission, as well as a shorter 1st gear it would have been much closer.

Which is why I REALLY want to get an '09 F150 out there next Sunday!

See Jeff? Wasn't that fun?

 

Egad, I think we all need to go outside and throw a football around or something

Not by me... ...right? I think I managed to take the high road, most of the time...

By the way Phillips91, I checked your math in the post above and it looks good.

 

You most certainly did take the high road in our discussions, which is why me and you havent had any arguments. I have no problem with you

 

I just used the online rpm calculator where you put in the rear end ratio, tranny ratio, etc, and it gives you the rpm.

On paper the formulas say that the 5.4 should pull as hard as the diesel, but the real world testing showed what really happens. He may have been pulling strong, but he could neither accelerate to a faster speed or shift to another gear. He is left sitting there holding it wide open at 25 mph while you are letting off the gas because you are going too fast. Even from a rolling start of 60 mph he couldn't top the hill as fast as you did from a dead stop in the middle of the hill with you letting off the gas. Imagine how badly my 7.3 pulled away from my 5.4 with both of them going from a rolling 45 mph start.

I am really not sure if the 09 will do much better. It has 2 extra gears, but it's basically nothing more than adding a granny gear and an extra OD. 1st gear ratio in the 5.4 you tested is 2.71. 1st in the 09 is 4.17, which means it will get the load moving a whole lot easier. It's going to shift to 2nd at about 10 mph though. 2nd gear in the 09 has a 2.34 ratio. So now you're doing 10 mph with a 2.34 ratio as opposed to 10 mph with a 2.71 ratio. If it struggled at 4k rpm with a 2.71 ratio wouldn't it stand to reason that it would struggle even more at 4k rpm with a 2.34 ratio? It would be interesting to see it in the real world test for sure.

Yes, this is fun as long as everyone gets along. We may disagree, but at least we can talk about in a civil manner and explain our sides without resorting to name calling. My side remains that the math may say one thing, but even your test showed that a 300 hp 5.4 can't keep up with a 350 hp diesel even though it got a 60 mph rolling start with you sitting still.

 

Had to go check the other gear ratios on the 09 to make sure of something before I posted it. 2nd in the 09 is indeed 2.34. 3rd gear is a 1.52. 1st in the 4r100 is 2.71 and 2nd is 1.54. That means that being in 3rd in the 09 is the same thing as being in 2nd in the 4r100. In your test the 4r100 could not shift out of 1st gear, which means it could not even have 2nd gear and your test results would have been the same. If it didn't have the muscle to shift to 2nd then I don't think the 09 will have the muscle to shift to 3rd. Which means you are going to be left pulling the hill in 2nd with a worse ratio than the one you have already tested.

In your rolling start test at 60 mph you said the 4r100 had to top the hill in 2nd gear at 45 mph. As we just saw, 2nd in the 4r100 is the exact same ratio as 3rd in the 09. So my hunch is that the 09 will climb the hill at the exact same speed, at the exact same rpm, but in 3rd gear instead of 2nd. To be precise, the 4r100 actually has a .02 advantage, so the 09 may be doing 44 instead of 45 lol.

 

This is great, Phillips! Civil debate is why I enjoy this place so much!

Just a couple of things, though. I may not have been clear enough in my other thread regarding the testing we did, but there were two separate hills. Here's what Monster-4 wrote about them

Mast hill was the one we attacked at 60. Buffalo hill started immediately after a left turn, thus there was no way to hit it at 60, so that's the one where we launched from a stop.

Incidentally, my dad just bought a 2010 F150 with the 3V 4.6L. it's rated to tow 9,500 lbs. There's a torque disparity between the 4.6 and the 5.4, but peak HP between his '10 and the '07 in the test is only 8 HP. With his 6-speed auto, I think it would pull the hill better than the '07 5.4 would.

It's a shame since it's so new he won't let me use it this time! He's afraid I'd screw up the break-in on a new engine. And it's too tall to fit in my trailer! Now if we were to do it again next spring....

On edit:
One thing I've been seeing lately is people being put down for their age. Not sure how old you are phillips, but the 91 in your username has many believing you are 17. Bill's been attacked for this same reason. Just wanted to say that I just turned 24 and that I joined FTE when I was 17. This is one of the best places I've been able to learn from!

 

In that thread with the testing i just read your post, so I didn't see monster4's description. I assumed you were on the same hill for both tests. That actually makes me feel a little more bad for the 5.4 than I did before lol. The 5.4 struggled and couldn't maintain 60 on the 6% grade from a rolling start but your 6.4 made it to 50 from a dead stop and had to let off the gas on a 15% grade.

I like that ford is going to a 6 speed auto, but I don't think it's as great as every one thinks it is. The manuals have been running the same gear ratios for years that the new 6 speed auto has now. It gives it an advantage over the 4 speed auto when pulling out or when cruising unloaded, but the middle gears are the same as the 4 speed. So under normal driving the only difference is going to be the numerical gear that you are in. They can call it whatever gear they want to, but if the ratio is the same, the results are going to be the same.

No, I am not 17. Phillips is my last name and 91 is the year model of some of my mustangs. I am 29 though. I have 8 guy cousins and 3 uncles on my dads side that have at least 2 ford trucks each. In the last couple of years we have or have had a 300 6 cyl, 400, 5.0, 5.8, 7.3 OBS, 7.3 sd, 6.0, 4.6, 5.4 2v, 5.4 3v, v10 2v, and everything from a ranger up to f-550's. And that's not counting our wreckers. We have done our fair share of shoot out type tests that you all did, so I do have some experience when it comes to that.

 

A day or two I thought about commenting on all of the Fords in your sig. Nice to see someone who walks the walk.

BTW FWIW I am 48, and you guys are making me feel old!

 

If you notice in my sig one of my cars is a mitsubishi......that one belongs to my wife. Her dad is a ford man too (06 f150 4.6, 05 freestyle and a new taurus) but we just can't get her to convert. Her first car was a mitsubishi mighty max, so she's liked them ever since. I'll admit, its been a good car so far.

I am a die hard ford man, but I have had my share of other brands too. I like to own something before I say its good or bad. I have had dodges, plymouths, mazdas, geo, oldsmobile and a chevy. The chryslers and mazda never had one problem, but the gm stuff was a different story. My ex wife had an alero we bought new and before 100k miles i had to replace the tranny, rebuild the engine, change an axle shaft, replace the break calipers every 25k miles due to a design flaw, the air conditioning ***** didnt work, interior parts would break during normal use, etc.

 

changed them at 100K, the truck is at 164K now.

Well, You guys have showed me the truth.
I would make more money with a 7.3 as a work truck.

I still love my V10, but it looks like the PSD ( at least the 7.3 ) Is a better motor for a lot of applications. Never thought I would say that!

My V10 will still out tow one, so its ok.

 

What year 5.4 is it and at what altitude?