Hey, please be patient....you've got the same comment posted several times in a row.

The 1704 is not an SCT product.
SCT is a separate company and entity, not part of Superchips Inc.

Superchips Inc (who I work for) makes the 1704.

You may see the 1704 called the "SCMT", which means "Superchips Microtuner", not having anything to do with SCT (Superchips Custom Tuning).

 

As I mentioned in another thread, modifications such as this can cause more problems than they intend to solve. If you run into any kind of a performance issue the dealer may have a hard time figuring it out with the tweaked programming. Worse yet, if you unload the programming and take it to the dealer for repairs, they might not be able to tell if it's a factory problem or an aftermarket programming problem. If they suspect that the system's been tampered with they can deny warranty coverage for that visit or even contact Ford and have your engine warranty voided.

Ford is becoming increasingly less tolerant of 6.0L modifications because many of the ones we see problems with have been modified in some way. The 6.0L mods tend to be more substantial, too. We had one in here the other day (as a crank/no start) that had recorded 57psi of boost and 1100+ degrees of exhaust temp. Stock MGP (manifold gate pressure) is somewhere in the neighborhood of 24 psi. Is it reasonable to expect any kind of longevity with these types of modifications?

It wasn't such a big deal with the 7.3s because they were fairly trouble-free to begin with. The 6.0Ls, on the other hand, continue to have glitches even in stock tune. Making modifications can compound the situation. "If yer walkin' on eggshells, don't hop!".

My advice will continue to be "leave it alone" if it's running OK, take it to the dealer if you have a problem. If you DO decide to make modifcations and experience problems afterwards, it isn't fair to expect the dealer to repair it under warranty.

 

You do realize that a stock 6.0L will reach 1100 degrees EGT?
Thats stock, stock. Out of the showroom stock.
On the data acquisition, the 1704 TOW file makes EGT no higher than stock and the ECON makes EGT no higher than 50 degrees above stock.
The PERF file will occasionally kiss 1250-1300, when really being pushed hard.

1300-1350 deg F is safe intermittently.

24 PSI you say?
I had a STOCK 05 on the dyno that hit 24 PSI. STOCK!
That was with or without the load of a trailer.

Yes, it is reasonable to expect longevity.
I've got 7.3 trucks out there approaching 300,000 miles and have ben tuned all their service life.

6.0's are getting great power gains, low EGT, great mileage and have been running consistenly while tuned for quite some time now.

Have you tested any of these trucks under load?

By the way, how long have you worked for Ford?

I understand that a tech at a dealer has a certain amount of training, but its mostly training in "parts changing" and diagnostics (diagnostics THEIR way, the way that protects Fords wallet).

In other words, a tech knows what Ford tells them, they have spent time in diagnostics, but haven't done any tuning because Ford's calibrations department took care of this for them.

What they tell you is often a corporate answer, flooded by proofreading by lawyers and upper-level management, which often know little or nothing on the subject of the document they proofread and release...

On the subject of the early flashes (which you say not to get reflashed by Ford)...some were creating EGT's up to 1600 degrees on bone stock trucks.
This happened to one of our moderators (no names).

After Ford flashed the truck, the EGT never exceeded 1150.....hmmmmm.

The point I'm trying to make here is you are making assumptions and a generalization that is not based on actually getting INTO the operations of the truck and tuning it live. It's based on "What they say".

I am not discounting your knowledge, because I'm sure you are good at what you do. I'm just offering a different point of view.


Walk into a dealer and ask a diesel tech what it takes to tune an injection timing curve correctly, or how load affects boost, or what compressor surge is and you'll probably get an answer...something usually assumed from the top of their head, or a corporate answer coached by Ford (even if they really know).

Now, before anyone jumps on me...there are a few (and I do mean a few) who really know, but it is a rarity.

There are two Ford diesel techs not far from here that are REALLY good.

This entire post (and thread for that matter) is my personal opinion, not speaking on the behalf or anyone or any company.....
...just so it's clear =o)

 

Hey Vic,
This thread is dauntingly long so i'll make my uninformed ? quick.
I just bought a new SCMT 1704 and my truck runs great.
Am i to understand that if the dealer flashes my truck in the future i will need to send the unit back to you guys to work properly?

I know to re-install the stock tune before i bring it in but do i download the new flash to the MT before i send it back to you guys if thats is fact what i'm supposed to do?

Thanks for your input.

 

The process works as such:

Assuming you are driving your truck with the 1704 tune in it, but need to go to the dealer, here are the steps to follow.

#1 SET BACK TO STOCK! (this is vitally important)
#2 Take your truck to the dealer and let them do their thing.
#3 When you get back home, attempt to reinstall the tuner.
If they did not reflash it, the tuner will load right back in.
If they did reflash it, one of two things will occur:
A. The tuner will upload the new file, recognize it and tune accordingly
B. The tuner will upload the new file, not recognize it (but store it
in memory and prompt you to "call superchips")

If the answer is "A", do nothing further...just enjoy your tune. You know have Fords improvements with superchips tuning designed to match the exact same files.
If the answer is "B", superchips will update the tuner at no charge to accomodate your new, unique flash.

If you send the tuner in for an update after Ford reflashes your truck, but you did not try to install the tuner after the reflash, there is a distinct chance that the update may not include yout new file....so it's important to let the tuner read the new flash, because it will often recognize it and tune it.
If it doesn't, it will store it so I can verify the files are correct and update the tuner.

 

Mine hasnt seen over 900 yet with stock exhaust. Some pretty intense test drives showing off with my freinds. How are some of you guy's getting up to 1300? Havent tried with my boat yet.

 

Thanks Vic!
That was very prompt.
I do have the 1704 so thanks for the procedure.

 

I see well over 900 just going 70 MPH uphill with NO tune installed. I have seen nearly 1100 with no tune while towing uphill. A fuel box will push EGT up to 1400 (and past if you’re not careful), and a SCMT performance tune will get it up to 1200 – 1300 at the absolute maximum, depending on conditions. Where is your EGT probe installed? My EGT probe is in the rear elbow of the driver’s side exhaust manifold.

 

Drivers manifold. We dont have many hills down here, below sea level. A bridge is as close as it gets. My boat is about 3500lbs well see how it does.

 

Yes, I realize that 1100 degrees EGT is safe.........but 1300 for prolonged periods may not be. Yes, I said that 24 psi MGP was "stock" (in comparison to the 57 psi we saw on a programmer-equipped unit). Melted pistons in 6.0L trucks just don't seem to happen unless something's been tampered with. Is doubling a manufacturer-recommended specification really such a good idea?

I also stated that the 7.3Ls seem to handle the mods better. Maybe the engine's better, maybe the mods aren't as aggressive. There are more 7.3s out there (than 6.0s) but most of my problems are with the 6.0s. Not sure why, that's just how it is.

I've been with this dealer for 19 years. I don't have the programming experience that you have but neither do your perspective customers! If some is good, more is better, and too much is just right. They don't stop at your programmer. They add sewer-pipe diameter exhaust systems, air intakes, and other goodies. There are simply too many vairables. The only "known" is when the whole mess doesn't act right the customer suddenly thinks it's Ford's problem and shows up at a dealer for free repairs. When the dealer denies warranty coverage, will your company step in and pay for those melted pistons or ingested turbo blades?

Aftermarket equipment has been around for a long time but it's only recently become a problem with these diesels. Ford even sells some, dubs them "for off-road use only", and they come with no warranty. You make the mods, you're responsible for the consequences. Nobody tells the customer that "it won't interfere with your warranty", either.

Your stuff works, no doubt about it. Perhaps it works too well in some circumstances, especially when customers mix modifications and fail to follow recommendations made by the various manufacturers. The customer doesn't seem to believe they're responsible for whatever consequences occur as a result. "The truck's under warranty, and the aftermarket equipment isn't supposed to void my warranty, so it's not my problem". Or is it?????

Someone on your end of the industry needs to come out and say that customers are making these mods AT THEIR OWN RISK becase in truth they really are. I'm just tired of it becoming my problem (at the dealership level) when the stuff starts to break. Ford will make good on their problems but they're not going to pay for failures that arise as a result of a modification. Perspective buyers need to know this UP FRONT before they risk damaging a very expensive engine.

It's good to get this stuff out in the open, though, and I appreciate your point of view. You know your stuff! So do the Navistar engineers, though. Your goal is to improve performance, their goal is to keep everything in one piece for 5 years/100,000 miles. The two goals might just be mutually exclusive....

The dealers and the customers are stuck in the middle. I already know we're there, the customers just haven't figured it out yet.

Have a good day, and I look forward to your next response.

 

No. In fact it's ridiculous. The 1704 still has boost limits, and They will usually run MAX (under big load) 30-32 PSI.
The major problem here is the stacking of inline devices and programmers.
Earlier in another thread I went in depth as to why this is a terrible idea....some just don't get it I guess.

To reach 57 PSI, you would have to be doing something really drastic, like stacking devices. That is just plain absurd.

Most of this is because Ford screwed up the 6.0 in the beginning (especially in terms of calibration), then you have tuners screwing around with something they don't fully understand, and owners who stack devices and just throw propane and/or nitrous on them without custom tuning specifically for propane/nitrous.

You are so right here...this is why the responsible companies are very specific
about not stacking, not adding propane/nitrous, etc...

Why do they have ingested turbo vanes? Because they did not follow instructions. Because they assumed stacking devices was ok, or they thought the injector timing curve in a programmer made for a stock truck is safe for propane.

Most companies who make a programmer are clear about it supporting a STOCK truck with air filter and exaust upgrades only.

Most people don't realize how unbelieveably delicate the inkjector timing curve is and they don't realize it must be set much different for propane/nitrous.

I drive an 03 cobra.
Stock HP was 360 (at the tire) and 333 ft lbs at the tire.
First, I simply recalibrated the PCM and added an air filter an exhaust.
This put it close to 400 at the tire. Should I assume a warranty in this case? Yes. I can set the program to stock anytime and most any dealer is understanding about air filter and catback exhaust. If I want to be paranoid, I could put the stock intake back in before I go to the dealer. It is still a "stock car" at this point.

However, now it has a 2.8 upper pulley (overdrives the supercharger), kook longtube headers, h-pipe, catback, air filter, live axle, Kenny Brown springs, and 315/35/17 555R drag radials, and a tune by yours truly.
It makes almost 475HP at the tire and just under 500 FT LBS.

Should I stroll into the dealer after an engine failure and assume a warranty (even after de-modding the car)?... hell no.

It's all common sense. Everyone needs to accept responsibiliy for what they do. I like an 11 second daily driver....but there is a "risk" associated with everything.

An out ofthe box programmer on a stock (or near stock) truck is very safe.

I can't speak for others, but I can say the product that I am a part of is made to accomplish the goals you speak of (performance AND longevity).
It's refined, a strong, yet responsible power increase. It was rigoously tested for safety and reliability.

If someone buys a programmer of any kind as has issues, they should set the truck to stock and see if the issues are still there. If they are, they should take their stock truck to the Ford dealer.
If the problem is only apparent with a program in it, they should set the truck to stock and report all related info to whoever tuned the vehicle.

If they are going to add silly modifications and/or stack devices, too bad, so sad...they are on their own.

I think this is common sense.

Once again......my personal opinion is stated in all of this.

 

Nice post Vic!

 

Gentlemen, I must commend you on your civilized debate - thanks so much for NOT getting emotional or belligerent, as others have in the past. You have both raised valid points and have provided us all with some interesting and informative reading.

Does all this mean I should unstack my propane and nitrous injected Banks-on- Edge-on-Quadzilla-on-SCMT custom tune? I sure will miss the 4,378 HP and 9,480 lb/ft of torque at the rear wheels… and the boys at the tire store will miss my daily purchase of 4 new 35” BFGs.

 

Great Post
EJ

 

Just a quick note:

Some of the early '03 6.0s actually run very well aside from a few niggling problems (rough rolling idle, cold start issues). For anyone NOT wishing to go with an aftermarket program, I'd recommend sticking with the original OEM flash if it's running OK. Having the dealer install a later calibration might bring a reduction in fuel ecomony and power. Most have said that they'd have lived with the little stuff if they'd known how the OEM reflash would affect the big picture.