Gas vs PSD
Postmaster
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,724
Likes: 4
From: Rogersville, TN
We aren't saying that the v10 will outpull the psd in all situations or even most situations. We are only arguing that under certain situations the v10 will outpull it. A 700' pull up a 15% grade from a dead stop with a load is not one of the situations where a v10 will win. It won't pull the same load in the same gear as good and it won't pull the same load at the same rpm up a hill. Let it rev and let it downshift and it has a wider power band and more power from the start of the power band until the end. 240 hp at 2,000 rpm and 350 hp at 3,000 rpm for the 6.4 and 280 hp at 3,250 rpm and 362 hp at 4,750 rpm for the v10.
Postmaster
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,724
Likes: 4
From: Rogersville, TN
It was in the previous post but here we go again. 37 foot travel trailer, 9500k, Elevation change of several thousand feet over 20 miles. Several hills measuring over 1/2 mile long, unsure of grade %. Pulled the same trailer with 05 F-250 Harley Davidson V-10 and a 2006 Harley Davidson 6.0 liter. Pulled the same trailer the same route both going and coming multiple times. 6.0 pulled the trailer better, with better fuel economy on each trip. I was a die hard gasser until I compared the v-10 towing to the 6.0. There was no comparison in my opinion. Just my experience, to each their own however.
I don't doubt that the 6.0 pulled it easier (higher gear, lower rpm, less or no downshifting, better mpg's, etc). What I am not getting is that the v10 lost 10 mph going up the hill and couldn't even maintain speed. Unless you were afraid to run it over 3,000 rpm or were driving at 10,000' elevation. The reason I am asking is because I have pulled more weight than that on an 8% grade that is 8-10 miles long and many 8-10% for 2-3 miles at 65 mph and never struggled to maintain the speed limit with a 2v 5.4.
Cargo Master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,413
Likes: 11
Well i can only hope i never see you on the road hauling 30,000lbs of hay and 10000 lbs of truck/trailer which makes you 15-20k overloaded depending your truck. I do agree that overloading your vehicle by 20,000lbs "very often" is far harder on the drivetrain than a class a.
Everyone else--class "a" are informative because it presents a worst case Abuse of drivetrain i.e running 26k pounds 100% of time. Btw with tow vehicle my dad has a hard tine keeping his 35' ford v10/chasis tifin under 26. He is a full timer and does need to rartion weight to stay LEGAL and SAFE
Everyone else--class "a" are informative because it presents a worst case Abuse of drivetrain i.e running 26k pounds 100% of time. Btw with tow vehicle my dad has a hard tine keeping his 35' ford v10/chasis tifin under 26. He is a full timer and does need to rartion weight to stay LEGAL and SAFE
Cargo Master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,413
Likes: 11
The bottom line is that tractive force is the only thing that matters. When I said HP was all that matters we were talking about comparing the engines in the same gear, at the same rpm and with the same final drive ratio. If you are comparing them in that situation, the one with more hp will also have more tractive force. The 6.4 will have more tractive force than a v10 when both are compared below 3,000 rpm because the 6.4 has more hp than the v10 at all rpms under 3,000. Engine torque is important in this situation because more engine torque also means more hp, since both are compared at the same rpm with the same final drive ratio.
Once you start comparing them in different gears, engine torque means nothing because the gearing multiplies torque. That's why you can pull a load better in a lower gear than you can in a higher gear even though your engine is making the same torque. For example, take an engine that makes 600 lbs of torque at 3,000 rpm and has a final drive ratio of 1.0 and compare it to an engine with 300 lbs of torque at 6,000 rpm with a final drive ratio of 2.0. The one with less engine torque will be turning twice the rpms, but it will be making the same hp, going the same speed and making the same tractive force (torque to the wheels) because the gearing advantage.
Once you start comparing them in different gears, engine torque means nothing because the gearing multiplies torque. That's why you can pull a load better in a lower gear than you can in a higher gear even though your engine is making the same torque. For example, take an engine that makes 600 lbs of torque at 3,000 rpm and has a final drive ratio of 1.0 and compare it to an engine with 300 lbs of torque at 6,000 rpm with a final drive ratio of 2.0. The one with less engine torque will be turning twice the rpms, but it will be making the same hp, going the same speed and making the same tractive force (torque to the wheels) because the gearing advantage.
Postmaster
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,724
Likes: 4
From: Rogersville, TN
I get what your saying. I really do. All yhay looks good on paper and the dyno machine. When your on the road on the side of a hill loaded to the hill your 37 hp is not going to out pull my 100 lbs of tq. That hill the whole uour going up it is working against your hp. The rear gear isn't much higher than mine. There's just noway 1 is going to rule over the one when it comes to towing. Now empty out playing around yea the v10 is the man.
Postmaster
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,171
Likes: 12
From: SE Texas
If you got what I was saying you wouldn't still be talking about engine torque. Gearing in the tranny and rear end multiplies torque and makes engine torque meaningless when you compare the engines in different gears. You may have almost 600 lbs of engine torque and my 5.4 may only have 350 lbs of torque, but if I am at a 2.0 final drive ratio and you are at a 1.0 final drive ratio my 5.4 is actually producing the torque of an engine with 700 lbs of torque in a 1.0 final drive. All you have to do to see that what I am saying works in the real world is hook a trailer to your truck and climb a hill in 5th gear at 2000 rpm and then climb the same hill in 4th gear at 2000 rpm. It will climb it easier in 4th gear even though the engine is making the same amount of torque because the gearing multiplies the torque.
It's useless to explain it to some people, facts are not important to them, just their assumptions.
JL
Freshman User
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 45
Likes: 0
Surely you can't expect me to go back and read through all the thousands of posts to find your info. It's easier to just ask than to search for it. I don't doubt that the 6.0 pulled it easier (higher gear, lower rpm, less or no downshifting, better mpg's, etc). What I am not getting is that the v10 lost 10 mph going up the hill and couldn't even maintain speed. Unless you were afraid to run it over 3,000 rpm or were driving at 10,000' elevation. The reason I am asking is because I have pulled more weight than that on an 8% grade that is 8-10 miles long and many 8-10% for 2-3 miles at 65 mph and never struggled to maintain the speed limit with a 2v 5.4.
I don't doubt that the 6.0 pulled it easier (higher gear, lower rpm, less or no downshifting, better mpg's, etc). What I am not getting is that the v10 lost 10 mph going up the hill and couldn't even maintain speed. Unless you were afraid to run it over 3,000 rpm or were driving at 10,000' elevation. The reason I am asking is because I have pulled more weight than that on an 8% grade that is 8-10 miles long and many 8-10% for 2-3 miles at 65 mph and never struggled to maintain the speed limit with a 2v 5.4.I don't think weight alone is a factor in pulling a travel trailer. Keep in mind that its basically a huge wind vane over 12 feet tall and 8.5 feet wide. It has the areodynamics of a block of wood and any headwind at all only magnifies the weight of the trailer. I know both the v-10 and 6.0 haul it much better with no wind or a tail wind.
Btw if your hauling over 10k with a 5.4 your grossly underpowered to be traveling on the highway and attempting to maintain a safe speed. People like you cause accidents, I know I'm a cop and have wrote accident reports for just such activities.
Thread Starter
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Modular motor junkie
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 6,190
Likes: 8
From: Texas
If 10,000 pounds behind a 5.4 is so grossly under powered that its unsafe, than that means that a 460 or 7.3 should not even try it.
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Cargo Master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,413
Likes: 11
Brother don't think for a second you can confuse me. I assume nothing. I work my truck I know what it can do. I worked beside other trucks. Again I assume nothing. My only thing in this arguement is that the v10 will not out pull me. I also argue that the present cost of gas under fuel in my area doesn't out weigh the milahe difference in my truck and a v10. You are the one falling to assumptions. I've never stated I could out anybodys truck. I have trailers,weight, and all kinds of road condictions. Anybody can put their truck where their mouth is. I'll even pay you for your labor. Don't get no better than that. I assume that the next statement is going to be brang my stuff to yall.
Cargo Master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,413
Likes: 11
If you got what I was saying you wouldn't still be talking about engine torque. Gearing in the tranny and rear end multiplies torque and makes engine torque meaningless when you compare the engines in different gears. You may have almost 600 lbs of engine torque and my 5.4 may only have 350 lbs of torque, but if I am at a 2.0 final drive ratio and you are at a 1.0 final drive ratio my 5.4 is actually producing the torque of an engine with 700 lbs of torque in a 1.0 final drive. All you have to do to see that what I am saying works in the real world is hook a trailer to your truck and climb a hill in 5th gear at 2000 rpm and then climb the same hill in 4th gear at 2000 rpm. It will climb it easier in 4th gear even though the engine is making the same amount of torque because the gearing multiplies the torque.
Elder User
Joined: Dec 2009
Posts: 882
Likes: 0
From: Ohio
If you got what I was saying you wouldn't still be talking about engine torque. Gearing in the tranny and rear end multiplies torque and makes engine torque meaningless when you compare the engines in different gears. You may have almost 600 lbs of engine torque and my 5.4 may only have 350 lbs of torque, but if I am at a 2.0 final drive ratio and you are at a 1.0 final drive ratio my 5.4 is actually producing the torque of an engine with 700 lbs of torque in a 1.0 final drive. All you have to do to see that what I am saying works in the real world is hook a trailer to your truck and climb a hill in 5th gear at 2000 rpm and then climb the same hill in 4th gear at 2000 rpm. It will climb it easier in 4th gear even though the engine is making the same amount of torque because the gearing multiplies the torque.
It's never meaningless. More torque in = more multiplied torque out. It's pretty easy to make up your ratios to get the result you want but fact is no one is driving down the highway at a 2-1 final drive ratio. Of course it's easier climbing the hill in the lower gear, but you'll be climbing it slower. No free lunch.
If it didn't matter there would be no point in designing higher HP higher torque engines. We could all just drop squirrels under our hoods, as long as their little cages were attached to a transmission with enough gears in it. Of course then the argument would change, with the Grey Squirrel fans on the left and the Black Squirrel fans on the right.
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I deleted everything else I just wrote. Can't believe I got sucked into this stupid STUPID argument yet again.
Elder User
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 685
Likes: 0
From: Spokane, WA
If you got what I was saying you wouldn't still be talking about engine torque. Gearing in the tranny and rear end multiplies torque and makes engine torque meaningless when you compare the engines in different gears. You may have almost 600 lbs of engine torque and my 5.4 may only have 350 lbs of torque, but if I am at a 2.0 final drive ratio and you are at a 1.0 final drive ratio my 5.4 is actually producing the torque of an engine with 700 lbs of torque in a 1.0 final drive. All you have to do to see that what I am saying works in the real world is hook a trailer to your truck and climb a hill in 5th gear at 2000 rpm and then climb the same hill in 4th gear at 2000 rpm. It will climb it easier in 4th gear even though the engine is making the same amount of torque because the gearing multiplies the torque.
There are two many variables to determine whether the hemi will outpull the v10 or psd to say by HP alone it will win. Same with v10 and psd, too many variables, we just need to line up a 6.4 and 3v v10 and see how they work.
New User
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
I Love my V10, I love the sound the 3" duals make (true duals) but I have a bud with an 07 PSD with 1100.00 worth of goodies and he will give a mustang a run for the money and that turbo sounds violent when spooled to 30 PSI YYEEEEEHHHAAAAA Nutn but black smoke from the pipe and blue smoke from the tires!!!!!!!
Postmaster
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 4,171
Likes: 12
From: SE Texas
Pretty much the same load, same speeds, and video of both runs.
Minimum gear offered in the V10 truck, and maximum gear offered in the 6.4L truck.
JL
Elder User
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 685
Likes: 0
From: Spokane, WA
Am I missing something?