AE class is in session!
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Joined: Jan 2011
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From: Puget Sound
Caverjoe - that quick-reference sheet is good genereic information. Say you had an MPG issue, that would be a good place to focus... and just let the rest go until you feel like it or have a different issue.
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From: Puget Sound
While listening to crickets, I got it into my head I didn't explain that all the way through.
First, we're pulling a sensor connector... then plugging it in with the engine running. We might be seeing a "delay" before the ICP signal pops on the graph.
For those with a scan tool, do you want to know right now today if you have a good ICP? A cold stock engine runs ICP about 700 PSI at idle, and it slowly drops until it reaches about 480 PSI at idle when warm. Unplug the ICP connector with a warm truck running while you watch ICP and IPR (ICP Duty Cycle). On a stock truck - if plugging in the ICP shows about 700 PSI and the IPR starts to gently change that number to about 480 PSI and an IPR about 11.3%... all good. If plugging in the ICP shows a radically different number than 700 PSI (I'll get a solid number later) and the IPR makes a dramatic change to correct the pressure, don't load a money clip into the Buck$Zooka just yet... this warrants more investigation.
First, we're pulling a sensor connector... then plugging it in with the engine running. We might be seeing a "delay" before the ICP signal pops on the graph.
- The PCM had no feedback from the ICP sensor, so it set the Injector Pressure Regulator to about 14% at idle. Under normal circumstances on a stock truck, this will put the idle ICP at 700 PSI. (startup is about 2400 ICP, so don't freak when it does this) To explain what's happening, let's say you're reaching for a bottle of water by the night stand... but the lights are out. You know where the bottle should be, so that's where you're grabbing.
- The PCM is happy to blindly keep that IPR at 14%, until the ICP sensor is plugged in. Plug in ICP sensor, PCM sees the ICP, and the PCM adjusts the IPR to fine-tune the ICP. Plugging in the sensor with the engine running is like turning on the lights while you're reaching for the bottle of water on the night stand... you can now fine-tune your targeting.
For those with a scan tool, do you want to know right now today if you have a good ICP? A cold stock engine runs ICP about 700 PSI at idle, and it slowly drops until it reaches about 480 PSI at idle when warm. Unplug the ICP connector with a warm truck running while you watch ICP and IPR (ICP Duty Cycle). On a stock truck - if plugging in the ICP shows about 700 PSI and the IPR starts to gently change that number to about 480 PSI and an IPR about 11.3%... all good. If plugging in the ICP shows a radically different number than 700 PSI (I'll get a solid number later) and the IPR makes a dramatic change to correct the pressure, don't load a money clip into the Buck$Zooka just yet... this warrants more investigation.
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Joined: Jan 2011
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From: Puget Sound
Man... I just read the post above again and I realize this is a tough one to simplify, yet explain it completely. Paring it to the bone:
- Unplug ICP sensor on a running warm engine and AE says IPR is about 14%, with ICP 700 PSI.
- Plug ICP sensor back in and IPR should drop to about 11% and ICP about 480 PSI at idle on a stock truck.
More Turbo
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 727
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From: Chariton, IA
Man... I just read the post above again and I realize this is a tough one to simplify, yet explain it completely. Paring it to the bone:
- Unplug ICP sensor on a running warm engine and AE says IPR is about 14%, with ICP 700 PSI.
- Plug ICP sensor back in and IPR should drop to about 11% and ICP about 480 PSI at idle on a stock truck.
I'll have to remember to try it when I get it back. I was just wondering when I pulled it if there was a way to test the IPR to see if it needed replaced.
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Joined: Jan 2011
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From: Puget Sound
MPG
I mentioned this in an obscure thread and I thought it was worth mentioning here. I have seen a few members with OBDII devices that monitor the truck as they drive and I noticed they focus on things like transmission temp, ICP, and FIPW. If you have the ability to monitor just two items on a scan gauge, transmission temp is a good one, to be sure... but there is a "biggy" in there that gets overlooked: Mass Fuel Desired (MFD). This is the PCMs interpretation of exactly how much fuel you need to get the job done (even with cruise control active) at any given moment. By itself, the number is pretty fickle... but couple it with your speed, gear, and situation and you have an MPG meter. If you are cruising at a set speed in OD on the flat with no wind, you can memorize that number for future reference.
Example: I drive at 65 MPH every day on the same stretch of road, and I have plenty of flat stretches of road. I'm custom-tuned with big sticks, so my MFD isn't likely to match everybody else's, but I know my MFD number at 65 MPH on the flat with no wind. Say I have a hypothetical MFD of 22. If the number climbs to 24 in a headwind, I know I've lost about 10% fuel economy on that stretch of road. If I tow, that number will climb and I can see what kind of hit I'll take at the pump... before the gauge has a chance to move! Say you do a mod or repair after you know your MFD number... you'll know the effect on your MPG right freaking now - not 300, 400, or 500 miles later. Remember: The gear you're in, speed, wind, hills, and other loads change the meaning of the number - so you need to compare the number under identical circumstances.
I mentioned this in an obscure thread and I thought it was worth mentioning here. I have seen a few members with OBDII devices that monitor the truck as they drive and I noticed they focus on things like transmission temp, ICP, and FIPW. If you have the ability to monitor just two items on a scan gauge, transmission temp is a good one, to be sure... but there is a "biggy" in there that gets overlooked: Mass Fuel Desired (MFD). This is the PCMs interpretation of exactly how much fuel you need to get the job done (even with cruise control active) at any given moment. By itself, the number is pretty fickle... but couple it with your speed, gear, and situation and you have an MPG meter. If you are cruising at a set speed in OD on the flat with no wind, you can memorize that number for future reference.
Example: I drive at 65 MPH every day on the same stretch of road, and I have plenty of flat stretches of road. I'm custom-tuned with big sticks, so my MFD isn't likely to match everybody else's, but I know my MFD number at 65 MPH on the flat with no wind. Say I have a hypothetical MFD of 22. If the number climbs to 24 in a headwind, I know I've lost about 10% fuel economy on that stretch of road. If I tow, that number will climb and I can see what kind of hit I'll take at the pump... before the gauge has a chance to move! Say you do a mod or repair after you know your MFD number... you'll know the effect on your MPG right freaking now - not 300, 400, or 500 miles later. Remember: The gear you're in, speed, wind, hills, and other loads change the meaning of the number - so you need to compare the number under identical circumstances.
More Turbo
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 727
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From: Chariton, IA
Thanks Rich great info. On my Infinity I can monitor mass fuel desired mg/stroke or volume fuel desired mm^3/stroke. Do you know what the difference is. they seem to follow each other pretty close when I log them. The volume runs between 5 to 15 higher on the graph than mass.
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From: Puget Sound
Thanks Rich great info. On my Infinity I can monitor mass fuel desired mg/stroke or volume fuel desired mm^3/stroke. Do you know what the difference is. they seem to follow each other pretty close when I log them. The volume runs between 5 to 15 higher on the graph than mass.
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From: Puget Sound
High EGTs and lower boost.
As everybody knows, there are many causes of this and the first assumption is usually a boost or exhaust leak. AE can be used to help troubleshoot this problem, but like everything else with AE... it's not going to just tell you "Well there's your problem!". You now need to investigate the why of a reading. Here's a scenario I just went through:
I was climbing a mountain pass, like I have done many times before. My EGTs were higher than they usually are on the same grade, so I immediately went into troubleshooting mode. My AE was showing a lower Exhaust Back Pressure reading than I expected by about 10%. My boost was down about the same amount. One person might grab the boost leak detector and have at it, after they went crawling under and over the engine on sound and soot safari. I started with the simple stuff... the filter minder. Yup... it's time. Some might say "But Tugly, a clogged filter should raise backpressure.". Nope. Block a shop vac hose with your hand and listen to the motor... it spins up! There is more vacuum, meaning the air in the turbine is a much lower density... reducing the load on the motor. Put that same theory on our beast and there is less density on the compressor side of the turbo (vacuum), so the exhaust pushes the turbine more easily... reducing backpressure.
It's easy to get intimidated by the complexity of our beasts, I've been guilty of that many times. As I learn more, many woes on the forum keep coming back to the first thing I learned in a diesel class I attended at the dealership: Plenty of clean fuel, clean oil, and clean air.
As everybody knows, there are many causes of this and the first assumption is usually a boost or exhaust leak. AE can be used to help troubleshoot this problem, but like everything else with AE... it's not going to just tell you "Well there's your problem!". You now need to investigate the why of a reading. Here's a scenario I just went through:
I was climbing a mountain pass, like I have done many times before. My EGTs were higher than they usually are on the same grade, so I immediately went into troubleshooting mode. My AE was showing a lower Exhaust Back Pressure reading than I expected by about 10%. My boost was down about the same amount. One person might grab the boost leak detector and have at it, after they went crawling under and over the engine on sound and soot safari. I started with the simple stuff... the filter minder. Yup... it's time. Some might say "But Tugly, a clogged filter should raise backpressure.". Nope. Block a shop vac hose with your hand and listen to the motor... it spins up! There is more vacuum, meaning the air in the turbine is a much lower density... reducing the load on the motor. Put that same theory on our beast and there is less density on the compressor side of the turbo (vacuum), so the exhaust pushes the turbine more easily... reducing backpressure.
It's easy to get intimidated by the complexity of our beasts, I've been guilty of that many times. As I learn more, many woes on the forum keep coming back to the first thing I learned in a diesel class I attended at the dealership: Plenty of clean fuel, clean oil, and clean air.
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More Turbo
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 628
Likes: 10
From: Florence
Guess I need to get my filter clean... Mileage wise I'm still good but it looks a little dirty.... Any clue who banks uses for their filter media so I can get the proper kit
High EGTs and lower boost.
As everybody knows, there are many causes of this and the first assumption is usually a boost or exhaust leak. AE can be used to help troubleshoot this problem, but like everything else with AE... it's not going to just tell you "Well there's your problem!". You now need to investigate the why of a reading. Here's a scenario I just went through:
I was climbing a mountain pass, like I have done many times before. My EGTs were higher than they usually are on the same grade, so I immediately went into troubleshooting mode. My AE was showing a lower Exhaust Back Pressure reading than I expected by about 10%. My boost was down about the same amount. One person might grab the boost leak detector and have at it, after they went crawling under and over the engine on sound and soot safari. I started with the simple stuff... the filter minder. Yup... it's time. Some might say "But Tugly, a clogged filter should raise backpressure.". Nope. Block a shop vac hose with your hand and listen to the motor... it spins up! There is more vacuum, meaning the air in the turbine is a much lower density... reducing the load on the motor. Put that same theory on our beast and there is less density on the compressor side of the turbo (vacuum), so the exhaust pushes the turbine more easily... reducing backpressure.
It's easy to get intimidated by the complexity of our beasts, I've been guilty of that many times. As I learn more, many woes on the forum keep coming back to the first thing I learned in a diesel class I attended at the dealership: Plenty of clean fuel, clean oil, and clean air.
As everybody knows, there are many causes of this and the first assumption is usually a boost or exhaust leak. AE can be used to help troubleshoot this problem, but like everything else with AE... it's not going to just tell you "Well there's your problem!". You now need to investigate the why of a reading. Here's a scenario I just went through:
I was climbing a mountain pass, like I have done many times before. My EGTs were higher than they usually are on the same grade, so I immediately went into troubleshooting mode. My AE was showing a lower Exhaust Back Pressure reading than I expected by about 10%. My boost was down about the same amount. One person might grab the boost leak detector and have at it, after they went crawling under and over the engine on sound and soot safari. I started with the simple stuff... the filter minder. Yup... it's time. Some might say "But Tugly, a clogged filter should raise backpressure.". Nope. Block a shop vac hose with your hand and listen to the motor... it spins up! There is more vacuum, meaning the air in the turbine is a much lower density... reducing the load on the motor. Put that same theory on our beast and there is less density on the compressor side of the turbo (vacuum), so the exhaust pushes the turbine more easily... reducing backpressure.
It's easy to get intimidated by the complexity of our beasts, I've been guilty of that many times. As I learn more, many woes on the forum keep coming back to the first thing I learned in a diesel class I attended at the dealership: Plenty of clean fuel, clean oil, and clean air.
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Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 18,849
Likes: 179
From: Puget Sound
More Turbo
Joined: Apr 2012
Posts: 628
Likes: 10
From: Florence
The banks filter is lifetime just clean it once and a while... Much cheaper than routine replacement
Got Data?
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,277
Likes: 1,412
From: Lake Stevens, WA
Got AE going now as well. Turned out I needed an updated version of the software to be able to talk to the OBDII dongle that had been flashed with an update. Good to go. Many thanks to Joey61 for this deal.
I see the EBP sensor is still reading almost 2psi high. I had cleaned the sensor and tube, both full of carbon. Guess the sensor did not recover. Should I go ahead and replace it?
Is there a way to have the BARO show up in psi instead of volts?
I see the EBP sensor is still reading almost 2psi high. I had cleaned the sensor and tube, both full of carbon. Guess the sensor did not recover. Should I go ahead and replace it?
Is there a way to have the BARO show up in psi instead of volts?
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Joined: Jan 2011
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From: Puget Sound
AE does not convert the BARO voltage to absolute PSI, but Infinity and maybe a few other scan tools/OBDII gauges do. I can tell you that's the same Baro reading I got in your area. I had a chart around here somewhere that converted voltage to PSI, but I can't find it. I did find a little gem in my search, though.
Got Data?
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 4,277
Likes: 1,412
From: Lake Stevens, WA
Ok, it's KOEO, so I'll get that EBP sensor ordered. My mileage is still 13-14 in mixed driving. Hopefully this will help. I'll be towing in about 10 days, so timing is good to get this done.
That pdf is a nice little gem.
That pdf is a nice little gem.