Gas vs PSD
Senior User
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 469
Likes: 1
So if the 8.1 gm is so great where did it go? I drive a 20-25k gvwr delivery van with the 8.1 and it has smooth steady power and lots of it. But i thought they had longevity issues which is to many of us an important issue. The motor must be strong enough to do the job, economical enough (mpg and initial cost) and have reasonably affordable maintnance/longevity.
Hotshot
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 10,101
Likes: 40
From: Pa
I comment it this way. Gasoline engines got mandatory catalytic converters like 50 years ago? That was because they have been dumping so many poisons that few more years later and center of Los Angeles would be a death zone.
Diesels on other hand have been always so clean that only in last few years got equipped with converters and particle traps. Some advanced diesel owners state that they would rather breath their tailpipe exhaust that the air on LA intersections where gasoline engines still prevail
Bottom line -if gasoline lowers didn't learn the truth in last 50 years, I don't think another 20,000 replies here will help the.
Diesels on other hand have been always so clean that only in last few years got equipped with converters and particle traps. Some advanced diesel owners state that they would rather breath their tailpipe exhaust that the air on LA intersections where gasoline engines still prevail
Bottom line -if gasoline lowers didn't learn the truth in last 50 years, I don't think another 20,000 replies here will help the.
So if the 8.1 gm is so great where did it go? I drive a 20-25k gvwr delivery van with the 8.1 and it has smooth steady power and lots of it. But i thought they had longevity issues which is to many of us an important issue. The motor must be strong enough to do the job, economical enough (mpg and initial cost) and have reasonably affordable maintnance/longevity.
Hotshot
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,069
Likes: 17
From: Melbourne, Ky
The things that made diesels so popular was that it was cheaper than gas, and got better mileage than a gas powered vehicle of the same size. Gas powered trucks are doing much better than in the past as far as mileage. Diesel is running neck to neck with gas as to the price. Get around a new diesel truck and the exhaust doesn't smell like a diesel! They are surprisingly clean. And the trucks running the urea, that eliminates the need of having to run so much of the exhaust through the EGR, there by increasing both power and mileage. The diesel fuel itself doesn't smell like it did a few years ago. These engines are more quieter than in the past, and the smell has greatly been reduced. As for the older engines, nothing smells like a 7.3 on a cold morning!
Postmaster
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,524
Likes: 2
From: CA Bay Area
Your logic is flawed. The mass amount of light duty personal vehicles were gasoline powered for decades and decades. Diesel engines were primarily used and most popular in Class 8 vehicles, large offroad equipment, boats and etc. On those vehicles emissions requirements have always been very relaxed, at least up until a few years ago..
For "some reasons" those 40-60 mpg vehicles never made it to US, while the promotion of 7 mpg Hummers was extremely strong.
In last decade whole World is enjoying 60-90 mpg cars, but not US citizen.
Who would have a business in cutting supply of economical vehicles while promoting gas guzzlers?
Hotshot
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 10,101
Likes: 40
From: Pa
You got the facts, but not the reasons. Most of taxi vehicles in Western Europe were diesel powered starting in 1960's. Diesel power was always a dream for European car owners since the 75 HP Volkswagens hit the market in 1970's.
For "some reasons" those 40-60 mpg vehicles never made it to US, while the promotion of 7 mpg Hummers was extremely strong.
In last decade whole World is enjoying 60-90 mpg cars, but not US citizen.
Who would have a business in cutting supply of economical vehicles while promoting gas guzzlers?
For "some reasons" those 40-60 mpg vehicles never made it to US, while the promotion of 7 mpg Hummers was extremely strong.
In last decade whole World is enjoying 60-90 mpg cars, but not US citizen.
Who would have a business in cutting supply of economical vehicles while promoting gas guzzlers?
Lead Driver
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,776
Likes: 443
You can't just say "it can't be debated" and that's that.
my point was, it cannot be debated that a diesel in your truck would get better mileage. i used my truck as a comparison (which is widely accepted to be one of the most fuel efficient diesels to date). also, i was making the point that what is debatable is just how harmful the "harmful" gases, that either emit, really are
Actually, in urban driving, I get around 10, on the highway I get 15, and I get 16+ on long LONG trips.
so whats your real average? the only way we can make accurate comparisons is if you use your real, hand calc'd average over a number of tanks in your normal driving conditions (ratio of highway/city driving). i could say that i get 25mpg on the highway but that would not be fair, because to attain that as an average i would have to drive an entire tank at 55-60mph on the highway. with my current setup, i average 18 with my 35/65 mix of highway/city respectively. . .
Emission Facts: Average Carbon Dioxide Emissions Resulting from Gasoline and Diesel Fuel | US EPA
the epa is a joke, but for the sake of the discussion, we can use their math on the carbon dioxide output (which is accurate)
Using their formula of 2778gr/gal diesel, and 2421gr/gal gasoline, my 10 MPGs would equal the carbon dioxide output of 11.4MPGs for diesel. And that's just carbon dioxide.
do the math with your avg vs my average, i will emit less
If your truck has no EGR, no DPF, and doesn't use ULSD, you are emitting a whole heck of a lot more other crud than I am.
my 17.3:1 compression motor runs pretty damn clean. yes, i can cloud out the sky, but that makes no sense and is stupid.
And if you're talking about your 2002 Cummins, you sure in heck are. Which is obviously tuned.
yep
Also, the PRODUCTION of diesel requires more crude oil, and produced more pollution during the refining process.my motor will last 2-5 times longer than yours. so, ultimately, the production and transportation of all those rebuild parts will use MUCH more crude
Now, if you want to compare a brand-new FORD 6.7 Diesel to my V10, I'll admit that it is most likely cleaner, mile-for-mile. But a big old 2002 6-cyl Cummins, no way.
indeed, the new diesels emit virtually nothing but bad odors. but at what cost? shooting diesel down the tailpipe and ramming soot back into the intake manifold is basically a waste of money, time, and resources. the motors dont last as long (soot kills), the oil life is cut in 1/2 (soot kills) and all of the trucks get horrible mileage. HOWEVER, all of the new, multi injection/cycle common rail diesels are much more efficient than their predecessors after the emission equipment is deleted. the only reason the "deleted" trucks arent seeing better mileage is because the truck manufacturers are continually deciding to make the trucks bigger, pushin more air, and adding ridiculous numbers to the scale. . .
my point was, it cannot be debated that a diesel in your truck would get better mileage. i used my truck as a comparison (which is widely accepted to be one of the most fuel efficient diesels to date). also, i was making the point that what is debatable is just how harmful the "harmful" gases, that either emit, really are
Actually, in urban driving, I get around 10, on the highway I get 15, and I get 16+ on long LONG trips.
so whats your real average? the only way we can make accurate comparisons is if you use your real, hand calc'd average over a number of tanks in your normal driving conditions (ratio of highway/city driving). i could say that i get 25mpg on the highway but that would not be fair, because to attain that as an average i would have to drive an entire tank at 55-60mph on the highway. with my current setup, i average 18 with my 35/65 mix of highway/city respectively. . .
Emission Facts: Average Carbon Dioxide Emissions Resulting from Gasoline and Diesel Fuel | US EPA
the epa is a joke, but for the sake of the discussion, we can use their math on the carbon dioxide output (which is accurate)
Using their formula of 2778gr/gal diesel, and 2421gr/gal gasoline, my 10 MPGs would equal the carbon dioxide output of 11.4MPGs for diesel. And that's just carbon dioxide.
do the math with your avg vs my average, i will emit less
If your truck has no EGR, no DPF, and doesn't use ULSD, you are emitting a whole heck of a lot more other crud than I am.
my 17.3:1 compression motor runs pretty damn clean. yes, i can cloud out the sky, but that makes no sense and is stupid.
And if you're talking about your 2002 Cummins, you sure in heck are. Which is obviously tuned.
yep
Also, the PRODUCTION of diesel requires more crude oil, and produced more pollution during the refining process.my motor will last 2-5 times longer than yours. so, ultimately, the production and transportation of all those rebuild parts will use MUCH more crude
Now, if you want to compare a brand-new FORD 6.7 Diesel to my V10, I'll admit that it is most likely cleaner, mile-for-mile. But a big old 2002 6-cyl Cummins, no way.
indeed, the new diesels emit virtually nothing but bad odors. but at what cost? shooting diesel down the tailpipe and ramming soot back into the intake manifold is basically a waste of money, time, and resources. the motors dont last as long (soot kills), the oil life is cut in 1/2 (soot kills) and all of the trucks get horrible mileage. HOWEVER, all of the new, multi injection/cycle common rail diesels are much more efficient than their predecessors after the emission equipment is deleted. the only reason the "deleted" trucks arent seeing better mileage is because the truck manufacturers are continually deciding to make the trucks bigger, pushin more air, and adding ridiculous numbers to the scale. . .
Lead Driver
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,776
Likes: 443
You got the facts, but not the reasons. Most of taxi vehicles in Western Europe were diesel powered starting in 1960's. Diesel power was always a dream for European car owners since the 75 HP Volkswagens hit the market in 1970's.
For "some reasons" those 40-60 mpg vehicles never made it to US, while the promotion of 7 mpg Hummers was extremely strong.
In last decade whole World is enjoying 60-90 mpg cars, but not US citizen.
Who would have a business in cutting supply of economical vehicles while promoting gas guzzlers?
For "some reasons" those 40-60 mpg vehicles never made it to US, while the promotion of 7 mpg Hummers was extremely strong.
In last decade whole World is enjoying 60-90 mpg cars, but not US citizen.
Who would have a business in cutting supply of economical vehicles while promoting gas guzzlers?
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Lead Driver
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,776
Likes: 443
So if the 8.1 gm is so great where did it go? I drive a 20-25k gvwr delivery van with the 8.1 and it has smooth steady power and lots of it. But i thought they had longevity issues which is to many of us an important issue. The motor must be strong enough to do the job, economical enough (mpg and initial cost) and have reasonably affordable maintnance/longevity.
Lead Driver
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,776
Likes: 443
There is no doubt that the 8.1 is a beast of a motor, but it does not compare, at least to me, because it was never put in a truck that can take years of hard use.
Torque at a lower rpm is worth less than the same amount at a higher rpm. The higher the rpm its at the greater the HP. I would love to see a dyno graph from a 3v and an 8.1 laid over each other. The V10 makes useable power from 1500 all the way to 5000. I'm not sure about the 8.1.
Torque at a lower rpm is worth less than the same amount at a higher rpm. The higher the rpm its at the greater the HP. I would love to see a dyno graph from a 3v and an 8.1 laid over each other. The V10 makes useable power from 1500 all the way to 5000. I'm not sure about the 8.1.
FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 42,561
Likes: 423
From: Long Island USA
diesel is, by nature, less harmful than gas. ever use a diesel/kero heater to heat a space (very common in shops, office trailers, etc during the winter)? very nice way to keep warm. if you used a gasoline heater to heat that space (if they even existed), you would die rather quickly.
Using a wick, kero is easy to deal with because it won't burn without the wick. A puddle of kero on the floor won't light with a match.
But as for gasoline heaters, which do need to be properly vented, at least in cars and planes: Gasoline heater - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Oh, and I dare you to take a kerosene heater into a closed space. That will end this debate pretty quick, and kill you too. Best to run it with a CO detector in the room.
Either way, I drove a diesel for work for 5 years in my mid 20's, which I maintained myself. Never again, and that thing was a purely mechanical injection setup. I ran the battery dead because the alternator wasn't putting out and it kept running - it wouldn't turn OFF as a matter of fact
Postmaster
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,524
Likes: 2
From: CA Bay Area
the damn EPA refused to put "fuel efficiency estimates" on window stickers on light duty trucks for decades. more gasoline can be refined / barrel than diesel. even if everyone in the world wanted to use diesel, they couldnt. so, while the rest of the world enjoys the benefits of diesel, we are the ones suckered into usin all the gas that no1 else wants. . . .pretty ridiculous. . .
Postmaster
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,524
Likes: 2
From: CA Bay Area
Either way, I drove a diesel for work for 5 years in my mid 20's, which I maintained myself. Never again, and that thing was a purely mechanical injection setup. I ran the battery dead because the alternator wasn't putting out and it kept running - it wouldn't turn OFF as a matter of fact
Sure shows the attitude.
Lead Driver
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,776
Likes: 443
That's because, first, they don't even make gasoline heaters because they are too volatile for private use - people would either blow themselves up or burn themselves with it. Just look at the number of times someone has tried to use gasoline in a kero heater
Using a wick, kero is easy to deal with because it won't burn without the wick. A puddle of kero on the floor won't light with a match.
But as for gasoline heaters, which do need to be properly vented, at least in cars and planes: Gasoline heater - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Oh, and I dare you to take a kerosene heater into a closed space. That will end this debate pretty quick, and kill you too. Best to run it with a CO detector in the room.
Either way, I drove a diesel for work for 5 years in my mid 20's, which I maintained myself. Never again, and that thing was a purely mechanical injection setup. I ran the battery dead because the alternator wasn't putting out and it kept running - it wouldn't turn OFF as a matter of fact
Using a wick, kero is easy to deal with because it won't burn without the wick. A puddle of kero on the floor won't light with a match.
But as for gasoline heaters, which do need to be properly vented, at least in cars and planes: Gasoline heater - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Oh, and I dare you to take a kerosene heater into a closed space. That will end this debate pretty quick, and kill you too. Best to run it with a CO detector in the room.
Either way, I drove a diesel for work for 5 years in my mid 20's, which I maintained myself. Never again, and that thing was a purely mechanical injection setup. I ran the battery dead because the alternator wasn't putting out and it kept running - it wouldn't turn OFF as a matter of fact
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerosene_heater
compare your hailed wikipedia links of kerosene and gas, take key note of the ventilation requirements between the two, and the warnings. as al gore would say, "the debate is over"