Gas vs PSD
FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: May 2004
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From: Melbourne, Aus
Not quite sure why not. What was the 7.3 rated at? 250HP and 525ft/lbs?
More HP than the 7.3, with the torque of the current 6.2L gasser.
Let's go to 3/4s the HP and torque of the 6.7. Let's say 300HP and 600ft/lbs.
That's right at the 7.3. with possibly 33% better fuel economy?
More HP than the 7.3, with the torque of the current 6.2L gasser.
Let's go to 3/4s the HP and torque of the 6.7. Let's say 300HP and 600ft/lbs.
That's right at the 7.3. with possibly 33% better fuel economy?
I am not sure it would give a 33% economy improvement, maybe 20% - I think a lot of folks might be interested in it, in particular if it came with a cheaper purchase price I could see fleets crunching some numbers and potentially choosing it as an option.
The private party market typically has a strong weighting towards the highest power engine, the ecoboost is selling well in the F150, but mostly because it doesn't offer any real-world performance detriment to the 6.2, and has 20% (or more) better gas mileage.
A typical SD buyer either uses their truck to the fullest extent, or wants the biggest, baddest truck on the block. Thats not to say that there isn't a market for it - and should gas prices continue to rise, that may grow further.
It would be difficult to get much more than 200hp and 375lbft on an 3ish liter engine that meets all the reliability/drivability/emmissions requirements. The 3.2 I5 I linked is Ford's latest light-duty medium capacity diesel, uses all the same tech as the 6.7 and makes 200hp and ~350lb ft.
Posting Guru
Joined: Mar 2008
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From: Dongola, IL
I know their not.... I was just attempting to get the thread back on topic....
Now for the small diesel idea, They need to make a midsize V6, 300HP-500FT lbs. Approx, it should get mid 20s on the highway, be easier to work on (due to it fitting in the engine bay easier) and would have plenty of power.
As for personal opinion, I will never have a newer diesel, due to the emissions system.... I will keep my 7.3L, It will by far outlast, and outpull (once I get my tuning) any of the new trucks; Diesel or gas! (and it gets much better mileage) sounds alot better too
Now for the small diesel idea, They need to make a midsize V6, 300HP-500FT lbs. Approx, it should get mid 20s on the highway, be easier to work on (due to it fitting in the engine bay easier) and would have plenty of power.
As for personal opinion, I will never have a newer diesel, due to the emissions system.... I will keep my 7.3L, It will by far outlast, and outpull (once I get my tuning) any of the new trucks; Diesel or gas! (and it gets much better mileage) sounds alot better too
Cargo Master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,413
Likes: 11
Still I wouldn't. 85 to 100 hp is still a big lose with having the same tq. Now I agree w/ you that for a light SD that would be an awsome engine. Its awsome that your mock engine is banging at the door of 7.3 specs and over less than have the displacement.
Senior User
Joined: Sep 2004
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Just out of curiosity, why do you think it would be able to make torque that much higher than the 6.7? If its half the engine (half as many cylinders and half the size, so presumably the same bore/stroke), wouldn't its power characteristics be halved? I would think the torque curve would start to plummet after about 3000 like the 6.7, and exiled's 200/400 would be pretty close.
Cargo Master
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 2,413
Likes: 11
Not quite sure why not. What was the 7.3 rated at? 250HP and 525ft/lbs?
More HP than the 7.3, with the torque of the current 6.2L gasser.
Let's go to 3/4s the HP and torque of the 6.7. Let's say 300HP and 600ft/lbs.
That's right at the 7.3. with possibly 33% better fuel economy?
More HP than the 7.3, with the torque of the current 6.2L gasser.
Let's go to 3/4s the HP and torque of the 6.7. Let's say 300HP and 600ft/lbs.
That's right at the 7.3. with possibly 33% better fuel economy?
Postmaster
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,524
Likes: 2
From: CA Bay Area
It would be difficult to get much more than 200hp and 375lbft on an 3ish liter engine that meets all the reliability/drivability/emmissions requirements. The 3.2 I5 I linked is Ford's latest light-duty medium capacity diesel, uses all the same tech as the 6.7 and makes 200hp and ~350lb ft.
The E320 CDI used a 2,987 cc (2.987 L; 182.3 cu in) I6 diesel engine, that made 224 PS (165 kW; 221 hp)@3800 and 510 N·m (380 lb·ft)@1600-2800
Mercedes-Benz W211 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Posting Guru
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,537
Likes: 0
From: Dongola, IL
Not quite sure why not. What was the 7.3 rated at? 250HP and 525ft/lbs?
More HP than the 7.3, with the torque of the current 6.2L gasser.
Let's go to 3/4s the HP and torque of the 6.7. Let's say 300HP and 600ft/lbs.
That's right at the 7.3. with possibly 33% better fuel economy?
More HP than the 7.3, with the torque of the current 6.2L gasser.
Let's go to 3/4s the HP and torque of the 6.7. Let's say 300HP and 600ft/lbs.
That's right at the 7.3. with possibly 33% better fuel economy?
Part of the key to longevity is not pushing the engine to its full capability, the 7.3L had big displacement, and was living at a reletively low power level. Any engine can be made to put out more power, but the question is: how long can it live at that power level. When My tuning and HPOP are in, I should have about 350/750 (at the wheels) and it will live a long time there..... How long will a 2v V10 last at twice the stock power output? (with stock internals)
Hotshot
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 14,069
Likes: 17
From: Melbourne, Ky
Art, I like your thinking. An engine like that would do wonders in an F150. Or, perhaps in a Ranger.
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Senior User
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We V10 owners all know the most limiting factor of the V10 are the cylinder heads. They flow like garbage and have rather smallish exhaust ports. They have redesigned them three times and gained almost 100hp from beginning to end using the same fuel. Does the V10 have some room to improve? Yes. I believe 550hp and 700ft.lbs. would be quite achieveable without bottom end work. There's plenty of stock bottom 4.6L GT mustangs out there pushing over 400hp with a blower at 8psi safely, why couldn't the same work for a V10?
This guy (Im sure ithat he's on FTE) has a turbocharged V10 excursion.
http://www.youtube.com/user/V10Turbo.../2/eFCC-hDlBz8
Posting Guru
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,537
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From: Dongola, IL
About as long as a 7.3 at twice its rated output...
We V10 owners all know the most limiting factor of the V10 are the cylinder heads. They flow like garbage and have rather smallish exhaust ports. They have redesigned them three times and gained almost 100hp from beginning to end using the same fuel. Does the V10 have some room to improve? Yes. I believe 550hp and 700ft.lbs. would be quite achieveable without bottom end work. There's plenty of stock bottom 4.6L GT mustangs out there pushing over 400hp with a blower at 8psi safely, why couldn't the same work for a V10?
This guy (Im sure ithat he's on FTE) has a turbocharged V10 excursion.
YouTube - ‪V10Turbo's Channel‬‏
We V10 owners all know the most limiting factor of the V10 are the cylinder heads. They flow like garbage and have rather smallish exhaust ports. They have redesigned them three times and gained almost 100hp from beginning to end using the same fuel. Does the V10 have some room to improve? Yes. I believe 550hp and 700ft.lbs. would be quite achieveable without bottom end work. There's plenty of stock bottom 4.6L GT mustangs out there pushing over 400hp with a blower at 8psi safely, why couldn't the same work for a V10?
This guy (Im sure ithat he's on FTE) has a turbocharged V10 excursion.
YouTube - ‪V10Turbo's Channel‬‏
Those Mustangs won't be running for any where near the amount of miles, or see the kind of load that the truck engine will. Besides, once those mustangs push that level power, they start cracking intakes because the block flexes...
As for the air flow through the heads, that also aplies to the 7.3L, they don't flow very well either!
A little beside the point, but my engine with stock internals will take 40+ psi of boost, that gives you an idea of the strength of the internals.
FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 42,562
Likes: 424
From: Long Island USA
Just out of curiosity, why do you think it would be able to make torque that much higher than the 6.7? If its half the engine (half as many cylinders and half the size, so presumably the same bore/stroke), wouldn't its power characteristics be halved? I would think the torque curve would start to plummet after about 3000 like the 6.7, and exiled's 200/400 would be pretty close.
PLUS - if it's half the size of a 6.7, there's a whole lot more room to improve intake/exhaust flow, more space around the engine means easier cooling, and a heck of a lot less weight.
And it spends a lot of energy just moving those heavy internals around. Limiting it's RPM range.
Hotshot
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 13,484
Likes: 42
From: Stevens Point, WI
A variable CR engine similar to what saab was doing but with the idea that it could run normal pump gas when tooling around and then be switched to diesel fuel and the higher CR for the work day or towing. That would be neato!
Posting Guru
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 1,537
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From: Dongola, IL
How is not being able to turn 5000 rpm a hindrance for me? I dont need too!
FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 42,562
Likes: 424
From: Long Island USA
Prime example of what makes this thread go haywire:
I never said it was a hindrance 
In some way, what I meant was that if the V10 were beefed up with rods, pistons and crank that were as heavy as the PSD's, it wouldn't be able to rev to 5000+ RPM without throwing bits of itself all over the place
In some way, what I meant was that if the V10 were beefed up with rods, pistons and crank that were as heavy as the PSD's, it wouldn't be able to rev to 5000+ RPM without throwing bits of itself all over the place
FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 18,787
Likes: 30
From: Melbourne, Aus
Think Germans 10 years ago.
The E320 CDI used a 2,987 cc (2.987 L; 182.3 cu in) I6 diesel engine, that made 224 PS (165 kW; 221 hp)@3800 and 510 N·m (380 lb·ft)@1600-2800
Mercedes-Benz W211 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The E320 CDI used a 2,987 cc (2.987 L; 182.3 cu in) I6 diesel engine, that made 224 PS (165 kW; 221 hp)@3800 and 510 N·m (380 lb·ft)@1600-2800
Mercedes-Benz W211 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Neither are available in commercial vehicles though - and I would almost bet that their figures would be lowered quite a bit to get them in a much cheaper commercial vehicle that is designed to haul a tonne, and tow 3 more for a couple of hundred thousand miles.
Somebody will have to prove to me that a V10 could take that day in day out, especially if it was used to tow..... I'm just not buying it.
Those Mustangs won't be running for any where near the amount of miles, or see the kind of load that the truck engine will. Besides, once those mustangs push that level power, they start cracking intakes because the block flexes...
As for the air flow through the heads, that also aplies to the 7.3L, they don't flow very well either!
A little beside the point, but my engine with stock internals will take 40+ psi of boost, that gives you an idea of the strength of the internals.
Those Mustangs won't be running for any where near the amount of miles, or see the kind of load that the truck engine will. Besides, once those mustangs push that level power, they start cracking intakes because the block flexes...
As for the air flow through the heads, that also aplies to the 7.3L, they don't flow very well either!
A little beside the point, but my engine with stock internals will take 40+ psi of boost, that gives you an idea of the strength of the internals.
There are a few people in the V10 forum with a Whipple or a Kenne Bell.