Dad's Engine
Postmaster
Joined: Mar 2013
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From: Over There
So in one breath you claim that the left over oil is plenty. Of course there is left over oil but the way these bearings work they rely on a supply of oil to form a rotating cushion.
Then try and say that gas is a better lubricant then nothing. Sure yes that is true, but just like above there is always a little oil and in a gas engine excess fuel in the cylinder will wash out the left over oil making it A LOT worse.
EDIT, you beat me to it with a better answer Jim.
Postmaster
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,575
Likes: 5
From: Broken Arrow , OK
There is some residual oil IF the drainback valve in the oil filter is holding.
(See the Kinser mini Mopar oilfilter page)
Think about where the sender is in relation to the crank, rod and cam bearings.
But there is not the sort of pressure needed to maintain a proper hydrodynamic cushion.
Bearing metal is soft (it has to be)
There is an explosion jamming a couple of pounds of metal into the bearing and twisting it.
At 600 rpm idle this happens 300 times a minute, or FIVE TIMES A SECOND.
This is why the first few seconds count.
(See the Kinser mini Mopar oilfilter page)
Think about where the sender is in relation to the crank, rod and cam bearings.
But there is not the sort of pressure needed to maintain a proper hydrodynamic cushion.
Bearing metal is soft (it has to be)
There is an explosion jamming a couple of pounds of metal into the bearing and twisting it.
At 600 rpm idle this happens 300 times a minute, or FIVE TIMES A SECOND.
This is why the first few seconds count.
Postmaster
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,575
Likes: 5
From: Broken Arrow , OK
OK I'm sorry, I gotta answer this.
So in one breath you claim that the left over oil is plenty. Of course there is left over oil but the way these bearings work they rely on a supply of oil to form a rotating cushion.
Then try and say that gas is a better lubricant then nothing. Sure yes that is true, but just like above there is always a little oil and in a gas engine excess fuel in the cylinder will wash out the left over oil making it A LOT worse.
EDIT, you beat me to it with a better answer Jim.
So in one breath you claim that the left over oil is plenty. Of course there is left over oil but the way these bearings work they rely on a supply of oil to form a rotating cushion.
Then try and say that gas is a better lubricant then nothing. Sure yes that is true, but just like above there is always a little oil and in a gas engine excess fuel in the cylinder will wash out the left over oil making it A LOT worse.
EDIT, you beat me to it with a better answer Jim.
pedant
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 23,576
Likes: 39
From: EXTREME southwest CT
If not, you could drive your truck around forever with 5psi or less.
This is one thing that the TMI oiling mod does.
It is changing where the oil is forced out into the cam bearings.
Postmaster
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,066
Likes: 7
From: Over There
And actually yes spit is a lubricant, it lubricates your throat for swallowing your words.
pedant
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 23,576
Likes: 39
From: EXTREME southwest CT
Is there any reason to pre oil the cylinders before inserting the pistons?
Is there a reason for crosshatch?
Is there a reason for proper oil viscosity?
Penetrating oil does not have to support a VERY hard iron or chrome ring under dynamic load at piston speeds of ~4,000 feet per minute.
That's 45 miles per hour!
Postmaster
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,575
Likes: 5
From: Broken Arrow , OK
I never said it was plenty. I said there was some. Think of it like a garden hose rolled up and hanging on the wall. When you turn it on the hose isnt full, but it isnt empty either. It goes spurt, spurt, spurt and then it flows. When it is "spurting" there is oil present and even though there is oil air , oil air it still is making some pressure. So whenever the oil is present regardless of it being intermittent there are still periods of pressurized oil in the bearings. Maybe not "ideal" pressure , but pressure.
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Postmaster
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,575
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From: Broken Arrow , OK
OK Jim, we are stranded in the desert and we lost all of the oil out of your 460, but caught in time before the motor Seized. we have no motor oil, but we have 7 quarts of penetrating oil. Do we try to drive it back with nothing in the pan or give the penetrating oil a try?
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FTE Legend
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 32,875
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From: Northeast, OK
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I have an idea. (Don't say it!) When I talked to Kayla at the machine shop yesterday she said they wouldn't deck the block until they have the pistons, which I thought meant they would mock the engine up and measure how far down in the hole the corner pistons are. Instead they will just measure the components and block, calculate the distances, and then determine how much to remove from the block. But, Tim won't have the pistons until March 3rd so it'll be about a month from now (Dad's 94th birthday) before I get them. So, why can't I get the measurements on the pistons from Tim on Monday and pass them to the machine shop? Surely Tim knows them off the top of his head, and they can't vary more than a few tenths.
If that works then the machine shop would be done with the block and crank about the time I get the parts from Tim and I can start assembling the engine.
If that works then the machine shop would be done with the block and crank about the time I get the parts from Tim and I can start assembling the engine.
pedant
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 23,576
Likes: 39
From: EXTREME southwest CT
Air compresses, oil does not.
That is the difference between a liquid and a gas.
Air has no viscosity.
Clearances (lack of an escape route) is the only thing that keeps oil in a high speed plain bearing.
I used to have race bikes with pressed together roller bearing big ends.
They could survive with no oil pressure, but not for long...
That is the difference between a liquid and a gas.
Air has no viscosity.
Clearances (lack of an escape route) is the only thing that keeps oil in a high speed plain bearing.
I used to have race bikes with pressed together roller bearing big ends.
They could survive with no oil pressure, but not for long...
pedant
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 23,576
Likes: 39
From: EXTREME southwest CT
So, all she wants is the compression height?
Are they going to line bore the block and mains?
Me, I like to mock everything up.
But I don't do this all day, every day.
To me, there are too many variables (like how much rod length you will lose when reconditioning)
This shop came highly recommended.
Do you trust them?
Do you trust your doctor?
Are they going to line bore the block and mains?
Me, I like to mock everything up.
But I don't do this all day, every day.
To me, there are too many variables (like how much rod length you will lose when reconditioning)
This shop came highly recommended.
Do you trust them?
Do you trust your doctor?
Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I have an idea. (Don't say it!) When I talked to Kayla at the machine shop yesterday she said they wouldn't deck the block until they have the pistons, which I thought meant they would mock the engine up and measure how far down in the hole the corner pistons are. Instead they will just measure the components and block, calculate the distances, and then determine how much to remove from the block. But, Tim won't have the pistons until March 3rd so it'll be about a month from now (Dad's 94th birthday) before I get them. So, why can't I get the measurements on the pistons from Tim on Monday and pass them to the machine shop? Surely Tim knows them off the top of his head, and they can't vary more than a few tenths.
If that works then the machine shop would be done with the block and crank about the time I get the parts from Tim and I can start assembling the engine.
If that works then the machine shop would be done with the block and crank about the time I get the parts from Tim and I can start assembling the engine.
pedant
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 23,576
Likes: 39
From: EXTREME southwest CT
OK Jim, we are stranded in the desert and we lost all of the oil out of your 460, but caught in time before the motor Seized. we have no motor oil, but we have 7 quarts of penetrating oil. Do we try to drive it back with nothing in the pan or give the penetrating oil a try?
I wouldn't expect the engine to survive a mile.
I SURE wouldn't expect it not to need a COMPLETE rebuild if we did make it out.
There is a reason modern vehicles have a big warning
"STOP ENGINE NOW" when they lose oil pressure.
It's not that the engine is going to lock up that moment, but the scoring will completely destroy it.
Engines can run for quite some time.
Remember all the C4C videos?
Postmaster
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,066
Likes: 7
From: Over There
Decking the block is one thing, sure it's better to do it with the parts in hand but can be done. However the bore is something else entirely. The bore should not be honed until pistons are in hand and actually measured by the shop doing the work. So as they should wait for the pistons anyway for the hone, then all decking it without them saves is a couple hours now instead of then.
Thread Starter
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FTE Legend
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 32,875
Likes: 48
From: Northeast, OK
So, all she wants is the compression height?
Are they going to line bore the block and mains?
Me, I like to mock everything up.
But I don't do this all day, every day.
To me, there are too many variables (like how much rod length you will lose when reconditioning)
This shop came highly recommended.
Do you trust them?
Do you trust your doctor?
Are they going to line bore the block and mains?
Me, I like to mock everything up.
But I don't do this all day, every day.
To me, there are too many variables (like how much rod length you will lose when reconditioning)
This shop came highly recommended.
Do you trust them?
Do you trust your doctor?
Yes, I would mock it up as I don't trust myself. But, they do it day in and day out, so know how to do it and have faith they can do it correctly. They did come highly recommended (including by the spitter
) so I trust them.And, I guess I trust my doctor as I go in Monday to plan out three surgeries:
- Removing a pterygium from my right eye
- Removing cataracts from my left eye
- Removing cataracts from my right eye
