Dad's Engine
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FTE Legend
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 32,875
Likes: 48
From: Northeast, OK
If 15 at idle is enough then I don't see the need for the mods. That's what Rusty gives and his mains weren't line-honed so his mains are a bit wonky - as I discovered when I refurb'd him. That would mean more loss in the mains and lower pressure. After all, I don't plan to wind the engine up very high, and certainly not to 6000, which is where the problems start according to the book.
Which leads me to the cam - which hasn't been picked yet as it as it is much too early.
Actually I'm hoping to get Tim to run the numbers and pick it, although he's very busy and hasn't been able to do that yet. However, the cam I would pick is Comp's 260HR, which is said to have an operating range of 1200 to 4500. That, coupled with the Performer's range of idle to 5500 means this will be a low RPM engine, so why try to wind it up?
As for economy, maybe I should have said "efficiency". I just don't want cam timing that hurts that low RPM power as that's where the engine will spend its life. With the ZF5 it turns 2000 on the highway at 70, which is faster than I'll drive for the most part as the aerodynamics are awful at that speed.
Which leads me to the cam - which hasn't been picked yet as it as it is much too early.
Actually I'm hoping to get Tim to run the numbers and pick it, although he's very busy and hasn't been able to do that yet. However, the cam I would pick is Comp's 260HR, which is said to have an operating range of 1200 to 4500. That, coupled with the Performer's range of idle to 5500 means this will be a low RPM engine, so why try to wind it up?As for economy, maybe I should have said "efficiency". I just don't want cam timing that hurts that low RPM power as that's where the engine will spend its life. With the ZF5 it turns 2000 on the highway at 70, which is faster than I'll drive for the most part as the aerodynamics are awful at that speed.
Postmaster
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,575
Likes: 5
From: Broken Arrow , OK
You are going to be in the same torque converter boat that I am Gary.
The wifey's Toyota runs extremely low oil pressure in the 4,9 V8. Much like the numbers you posted about Ryusty. It has always bothered me, but the techs at Toyota assured me it was designed that way. I am sure the motor is very different than a 400. However, Ford had been designing V8 motors for a lot of years before the M/400 came about. So maybe it's a non issue?
The wifey's Toyota runs extremely low oil pressure in the 4,9 V8. Much like the numbers you posted about Ryusty. It has always bothered me, but the techs at Toyota assured me it was designed that way. I am sure the motor is very different than a 400. However, Ford had been designing V8 motors for a lot of years before the M/400 came about. So maybe it's a non issue?
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FTE Legend
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 32,875
Likes: 48
From: Northeast, OK
Doubt I'm going to be in any torque converter boat as the ZF has a lock-up converter controlled by my left leg.
I'm thinking the oiling thing is a non-issue. But I will talk to Tim about it. And I may type and draw up an article I found and posted a picture of earlier, although I doubt any of you read it as it was small, fuzzy, and awful to read. But I struggled through it and, having poked around in the oil passages yesterday, now understand it. So I want to convert it to true text awa capture the drawing for posterity.
And, from what it says the issue comes when spinning the engine upwards of 7500 R's. Obviously that's something I'm not going to do for fear of replicating the video Brad posted. (Plus, the engine will have run out of breath long before.) I suspect the target for all of this discussion re oiling is for people racing these engines, and that probably means 351C's. In any event, it doesn't include me.
I'm thinking the oiling thing is a non-issue. But I will talk to Tim about it. And I may type and draw up an article I found and posted a picture of earlier, although I doubt any of you read it as it was small, fuzzy, and awful to read. But I struggled through it and, having poked around in the oil passages yesterday, now understand it. So I want to convert it to true text awa capture the drawing for posterity.
And, from what it says the issue comes when spinning the engine upwards of 7500 R's. Obviously that's something I'm not going to do for fear of replicating the video Brad posted. (Plus, the engine will have run out of breath long before.) I suspect the target for all of this discussion re oiling is for people racing these engines, and that probably means 351C's. In any event, it doesn't include me.
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FTE Legend
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 32,875
Likes: 48
From: Northeast, OK
Just got off the phone from Tim and then Stanley at the machine shop. Too much to report in one go and I have things to do, but here's the essence:
- Tim
- Don't want to hone block until pistons are in-hand as the machine shop will want to measure their diameter.
- Dyno is a good way to break in an engine
- Oiling: They've observed these engines and the #1 main has too much oil to it so it sheds LOTS of oil. The mod restricts the oil to #1 main, only, and is too easy not to do. They do that and the cam bearings to every engine they build and highly recommend it.
- Carb: He's torn between the 650 and 800 Thunder/AVS, but sees what I'm saying about economy and agrees the smaller primaries would help that.
- Intake: He thinks the Weiand is enough better than the Eddy that he thinks I should go with it.
- Cam: Has a guy at Comp that he will consult with on this, but expects the best cam to be what he calls the Panterra Grind. However, they may want to back it down a bit for what I want, although it makes a TON of torque the way it is.
- Ignition: He doesn't know about curves, but will consult with some people (inc MSD) and get back to me.
- Stanley
- Leaving the block and crank there for a month until I get the pistons isn't a problem.
- Dyno:
- Set $400 for doing whatever we do
- Warm up for 10 to 15 minutes until temp is stable
- Set timing and check for leaks
- Will adjust timing to get max power
- We, he and I, can adjust the jetting, but I should bring a strip kit
- I'll need to bring whatever I'm going to run, headers or manifolds, as he doesn't have anything that fits this engine
- Cooling system has its own thermostat and 1000 gallons of water
- Pulls are very short and start by opening throttle to full and then the dyno pulls the engine down to the set minimum (typically 2500 but it is adjustable although the lower you go the harder it is on the engine) and then eases up on the load to bring the R's up at 300 RPM/second.
- All info is printed out and given to me, and it includes Tq, Hp, BFSC, VE, lbs/hr fuel, water temp, and AFR
Old School Hot Rodder
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,472
Likes: 11
From: Exmore, VA
Sounds like the machine shop dyno is geared to do what the customer desires in addition to initial break-in. Should be a very interesting experience. I would imagine he has exhaust thermocouples etc. If he can monitor all 8 ports then you will be able to see if there is any imbalance in mixture distribution.
I'm going to have to see if I can find that Ford Thermoquad I had, that's what you really need!
I'm going to have to see if I can find that Ford Thermoquad I had, that's what you really need!
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FTE Legend
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 32,875
Likes: 48
From: Northeast, OK
Bill - They do seem quite flexible. And it should be very interesting - but not dumb. (Apologies to Arte Johnson.)
As for a Ford Thermoquad, I would LOVE it!!!! It goes with the theme, for sure.
Jim - Were are seemingly together. As for a full pull, surely we can tone the first few down.
As for a Ford Thermoquad, I would LOVE it!!!! It goes with the theme, for sure.
Jim - Were are seemingly together. As for a full pull, surely we can tone the first few down.
pedant
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 23,576
Likes: 38
From: EXTREME southwest CT
Be sure to weld your A/F bung in the headers/manifolds/crossover you are to bring.
Don't know about your Edelbrock LED model.
Innovate has rapid response and real numbers.
You replied above that you have a gearbox, not a transmission.
Remember that 10.5:1 acts as engine braking soon as you reach for the wide pedal.
Don't know about your Edelbrock LED model.
Innovate has rapid response and real numbers.
You replied above that you have a gearbox, not a transmission.
Remember that 10.5:1 acts as engine braking soon as you reach for the wide pedal.
Elder User
Joined: Sep 2013
Posts: 551
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That combo moved far more air than the exhaust system could handle, did you note how the exhaust flex pipe swelled up, could be a big part of why she went bang.
Postmaster
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,575
Likes: 5
From: Broken Arrow , OK
On my F 250 when I built the motor and modded it I put in a clutch set up for my ZF5 that had a pressure plate with 3X the clamp force of a factory P plate. The torque is oodles more than a gasser , but in a nut shell I could make the clutch slip in the economy mode of the tuner whenever I wanted it to. I had to upgrade to $1000.00 package from Southbend Clutch and now it holds everything I can put to it.
My torque converter will be under $300.00 for the Bronco. However an upgraded clutch kit for your truck will be North of $500.00.
My torque converter will be under $300.00 for the Bronco. However an upgraded clutch kit for your truck will be North of $500.00.
Postmaster
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,575
Likes: 5
From: Broken Arrow , OK
Dang! Thats like a 800lb motor flying through the air like someone kicked a beer can.
Postmaster
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,575
Likes: 5
From: Broken Arrow , OK
On my F 250 when I built the motor and modded it I put in a clutch set up for my ZF5 that had a pressure plate with 3X the clamp force of a factory P plate. The torque is oodles more than a gasser , but in a nut shell I could make the clutch slip in the economy mode of the tuner whenever I wanted it to. I had to upgrade to $1000.00 package from Southbend Clutch and now it holds everything I can put to it.
My torque converter will be under $300.00 for the Bronco. However an upgraded clutch kit for your truck will be North of $500.00.
My torque converter will be under $300.00 for the Bronco. However an upgraded clutch kit for your truck will be North of $500.00.
That translates into like $350.00 from amazon.
Or less even!
I think I am truly done with Summit and Jegs. Amazon is destroying them and fee shipping to boot now that I am a prime member.
Summit is good for getting part numbers and selection though. When you are ready to buy then go to Amazon and look up the factory part number and buy it cheaper.
Last edited by ctubutis; Feb 10, 2014 at 10:31 PM. Reason: fix link