Dad's Engine
Old School Hot Rodder
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,472
Likes: 11
From: Exmore, VA
Gary, the reason I used studs is due to the need for real good clamping force on a pressure fed engine. 2.2L MOPARs are famous for HG problems. The only gasket most people use are the MOPAR performance ones. On a small in-line it is actually easier to put the head on with them.
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FTE Legend
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 32,875
Likes: 48
From: Northeast, OK
Rod Prep
I've been planning to "clean up" the rods, although I don't really know how far to go with that effort. Nevertheless, I got started today. The rods out of Dad's engine are cleaner than those out of the $40 engine, but they still have cooked-on dirty oil on them and brake cleaner doesn't take it off. So I headed to the blast cabinet.
But first I decided I should protect the bearing surfaces. So I installed the old bearings on the big end and tightened the caps down snugly. Then I pressed a wrist pin out of one of the $40 rods and turned it down .002" in the lathe to be a snug fit in the small end. However, that may not be quite enough as I had to go back to the press and nudge it to get it out, so I'll take another .002" off and see how that works.
Then on to the blast cabinet using aluminum oxide at 50 psi to just clean things up. I think the first one turned out good. Here's a before/after. Note the copper on the big end. Presumably that's a factory treatment?
So the next question is how far to go with the cleanup. Here's a shot of the parting line running down the side of the rod. It measures about .075" wide and gets to about .040" tall.
I can take it off, as SDDL-UP did on his, as shown below:
But, does it provide any strength or is it just some place for stress to gather?
But first I decided I should protect the bearing surfaces. So I installed the old bearings on the big end and tightened the caps down snugly. Then I pressed a wrist pin out of one of the $40 rods and turned it down .002" in the lathe to be a snug fit in the small end. However, that may not be quite enough as I had to go back to the press and nudge it to get it out, so I'll take another .002" off and see how that works.
Then on to the blast cabinet using aluminum oxide at 50 psi to just clean things up. I think the first one turned out good. Here's a before/after. Note the copper on the big end. Presumably that's a factory treatment?
So the next question is how far to go with the cleanup. Here's a shot of the parting line running down the side of the rod. It measures about .075" wide and gets to about .040" tall.
I can take it off, as SDDL-UP did on his, as shown below:
But, does it provide any strength or is it just some place for stress to gather?
pedant
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 23,576
Likes: 38
From: EXTREME southwest CT
Are you going to polish the beams, or have them shot peened?
If the latter just take off any sharp edges or obvious stress risers.
Putting the surface in compression will do more than polish.
Keep an eye on weights.
Don't go crazy on one of them and not the next.
Once peened you want enough on the pads to easily balance the rotating assembly.
If the latter just take off any sharp edges or obvious stress risers.
Putting the surface in compression will do more than polish.
Keep an eye on weights.
Don't go crazy on one of them and not the next.
Once peened you want enough on the pads to easily balance the rotating assembly.
pedant
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 23,576
Likes: 38
From: EXTREME southwest CT
The copper plating is probably a mask for case hardening.
Sharp edges and rapid changes in section are really what will cause risers.
That forging line is small enough that I doubt it would be 'noticed' in a stress analysis.
This guy beat Ferrari at LeMans.
Maybe he is on to something?
http://books.google.com/books?id=S0s...eening&f=false
Sharp edges and rapid changes in section are really what will cause risers.
That forging line is small enough that I doubt it would be 'noticed' in a stress analysis.
This guy beat Ferrari at LeMans.
Maybe he is on to something?
http://books.google.com/books?id=S0s...eening&f=false
pedant
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 23,576
Likes: 38
From: EXTREME southwest CT
The book is from C Smith, C Shelby's crew chief.
In a nutshell, he says there is no way to accomplish it DIY and there is no need to polish or smooth the rod first.
He also mentions that it is imperative to get the roots under the bolt heads, as this machined section is one of the most highly stressed areas in a connecting rod.
In a nutshell, he says there is no way to accomplish it DIY and there is no need to polish or smooth the rod first.
He also mentions that it is imperative to get the roots under the bolt heads, as this machined section is one of the most highly stressed areas in a connecting rod.
pedant
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 23,576
Likes: 38
From: EXTREME southwest CT
I was only three in '66 but the Shelby GT's, Cobra's and the GT40 are STILL some of the most desirable cars of all time to me.
I'm not jealous, but I'm glad you were able to enjoy one!
I'm not jealous, but I'm glad you were able to enjoy one!
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FTE Legend
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 32,875
Likes: 48
From: Northeast, OK
That's one of the books I don't have - and should. Was just reading about John Carroll Smith in ARP's catalog:
Then he says:
There are many of us who can say we knew John Carroll Smith in life. Carroll Smith was known around the engineering shops as a design and development engineer. He was known on race circuits as a team manager, driver coach and racing guru. And before that, he was known for his 30+ years of racing experience, driving in SCCA events, as well as on circuits
in Europe including the Targa Florio and Le Mans. Even more of us know Carroll Smith through his books. His “To Win” series of books brought technical acclaim as they became staples for amateur and professional racers, while his “Engineer in Your Pocket” are today highly regarded as engineering handbooks. We’re never surprised to find his name on or featured in – books on race car design, preparation, engineering and tuning. Among his peers at the Society of Automotive Engineers, he served as a judge for the Formula SAE competition. One of his proudest honors was the Society’s Excellence in Engineering Education award. Carroll Smith was a race engineer and special motorsports consultant with Automotive Racing Products for more than decade. The pages of our catalog alone bear the mark of his enormous contributions to our efforts.
Here at ARP, as elsewhere, Carroll Smith’s mission was simple. He was determined to impart the encyclopedic knowledge of racing and the machinery of racing that he learned during those decades on the world’s racetracks, around those shops and among his engineering peers. He left us at ARP with a significant engineering inheritance. Much of what we now know from Carroll will ensure we remain the world leader in the field of racing fasteners. It is our way of reciprocating for what he gave us that we impart his expertise and experience in the form we know best, superior engineered products. As an engineer, Carroll Smith had successes in Formula 5000, numerous GT and sports car races, and with the Ferrari Formula 1 team. He is best known, however, for his work with Carroll Shelby and the Ford GT40 program which he helped develop into a winner at Le Mans. Ford has recently announced it is bringing back the GT40, its signature race car and a vehicle which, even forty years later, bears Carroll’s fingerprints. To those of us who knew him in person and through his work, the return of the GT40 is just another indicator of the enormous contribution to race engineering that John Carroll Smith continues to make, even after his passing.
Carroll Smith passed away at his California home on May 16, 2003, from pancreatic cancer.
Interesting what he says about peening in your shot cabinet. And the fatigue limit actually decreases after blasting with some media. in Europe including the Targa Florio and Le Mans. Even more of us know Carroll Smith through his books. His “To Win” series of books brought technical acclaim as they became staples for amateur and professional racers, while his “Engineer in Your Pocket” are today highly regarded as engineering handbooks. We’re never surprised to find his name on or featured in – books on race car design, preparation, engineering and tuning. Among his peers at the Society of Automotive Engineers, he served as a judge for the Formula SAE competition. One of his proudest honors was the Society’s Excellence in Engineering Education award. Carroll Smith was a race engineer and special motorsports consultant with Automotive Racing Products for more than decade. The pages of our catalog alone bear the mark of his enormous contributions to our efforts.
Here at ARP, as elsewhere, Carroll Smith’s mission was simple. He was determined to impart the encyclopedic knowledge of racing and the machinery of racing that he learned during those decades on the world’s racetracks, around those shops and among his engineering peers. He left us at ARP with a significant engineering inheritance. Much of what we now know from Carroll will ensure we remain the world leader in the field of racing fasteners. It is our way of reciprocating for what he gave us that we impart his expertise and experience in the form we know best, superior engineered products. As an engineer, Carroll Smith had successes in Formula 5000, numerous GT and sports car races, and with the Ferrari Formula 1 team. He is best known, however, for his work with Carroll Shelby and the Ford GT40 program which he helped develop into a winner at Le Mans. Ford has recently announced it is bringing back the GT40, its signature race car and a vehicle which, even forty years later, bears Carroll’s fingerprints. To those of us who knew him in person and through his work, the return of the GT40 is just another indicator of the enormous contribution to race engineering that John Carroll Smith continues to make, even after his passing.
Carroll Smith passed away at his California home on May 16, 2003, from pancreatic cancer.
Then he says:Anyway, ALL connecting rods should be shot peened. What is more, they should be peened with the bolts removed, simply because the radius where the register for the bolt head and/or nut joins the rod is one of the most highly stressed areas of the rod and peening with the bolts in place means that the most crucial area is going to be missed - DUMB!
So now I have to rethink things as my shot-peening guy was going to mask off the bearing area. Can he do that when the cap isn't on the rod? And, maybe more importantly, does it matter? This will be done before the big end is resized, so does it matter? He could still mask the little end.
Postmaster
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 3,066
Likes: 7
From: Over There
I really dont think that start ups create much wear on a motor. As soon as the engine starts to turn the oil pump is pumping rather it starts or not. I understand there is compression inside the cylinders as the pistons move up and down , but it takes heat to make steel wear or cut. So in essence you have 2 perfectly smooth surfaces rubbing against each other (piston ring and cylinder wall) for 2 or 3 seconds until the oil starts to run through the motor. The 2 or 3 seconds could be a gross exaggeration too. Also another thing to consider is that fuel will be introduced into the cylinder almost immediately as well and will provide some lubrication.
I dont think it's worth worrying about Brute.
I dont think it's worth worrying about Brute.
Bruno it sounds like your only thinking of the cylinder walls. Yes this kind of pre-oiling would do very little in an engine like this one without forced wrist pin oiling or piston squirters. The only things that can be done for cylinder wall wear besides using good oil have to be done now, coated pistons, chomoly rings, and very good machine work. And no gas is not a lubricant. It would however do a lot for the 400s weak spots which my understanding is the cam bearings and to a minor extent the rod bearings. This cam issue is even more important for this engine as he intends to run a roller cam which puts more stress on the bearings. The rear cam bearings and lifters are the last critical parts to get oil pressure and in some cases can take way too long. You've never fired up an engine and it's rattled for 15 seconds after words?
With a little effort and investment it can be ensured that nothing will wear out before the cylinder walls and that that takes a very long time.
HiJack mode off
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FTE Legend
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 32,875
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From: Northeast, OK
Well, I hadn't learned from JCS that there's no need to polish or smooth the rod before peening. 
So, having started I must go on. And here's the first one:
It is hard to get a good picture but the parting line is gone and all sharp edges are gone. It took awhile, but now that I have the process down I can do it on the rest of the rods in about a day. And, while it may not make much difference it makes me feel good.
So, having started I must go on. And here's the first one:It is hard to get a good picture but the parting line is gone and all sharp edges are gone. It took awhile, but now that I have the process down I can do it on the rest of the rods in about a day. And, while it may not make much difference it makes me feel good.
pedant
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 23,576
Likes: 38
From: EXTREME southwest CT
Masochism builds character. 
But I understand you're quite a character already!
Carry on.
But I understand you're quite a character already!
Carry on.
Postmaster
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 4,575
Likes: 5
From: Broken Arrow , OK
All the dyno ribbing is just ribbing. I threw out the chassis dyno idea for an option to having it done out of the truck at the machine shop. I was just saying it's not the end of the world once the motor is in the truck.
The live tuning comment is a term the diesel guys use. They do live tuning on dynos at shops and certain meets. All of it is done with a laptop or PC. The only manual adjustments would be if the motor had a regulated return on it and a fuel pressure tweak was made. Supposedly it custom tunes the truck in as good as it can be done.
Morton may indeed let you make changes to the motor during the session. The only issue I could see would be people standing in line to get their turn, which i doubt is the case. It wouldnt hurt to ask.
Now the oiling at start up conversation: So I cant believe that 100% of the oil that services the mains, rods and wrist pins all drains back into the pan over night. There still has to be some left the next morning for the start up. Again once the engine turns so does the oil pump. I can believe that there are intermittent periods of not a lot of oil servicing the lower end. but i just cant see it amounting to much as far as wear goes.
The live tuning comment is a term the diesel guys use. They do live tuning on dynos at shops and certain meets. All of it is done with a laptop or PC. The only manual adjustments would be if the motor had a regulated return on it and a fuel pressure tweak was made. Supposedly it custom tunes the truck in as good as it can be done.
Morton may indeed let you make changes to the motor during the session. The only issue I could see would be people standing in line to get their turn, which i doubt is the case. It wouldnt hurt to ask.
Now the oiling at start up conversation: So I cant believe that 100% of the oil that services the mains, rods and wrist pins all drains back into the pan over night. There still has to be some left the next morning for the start up. Again once the engine turns so does the oil pump. I can believe that there are intermittent periods of not a lot of oil servicing the lower end. but i just cant see it amounting to much as far as wear goes.
pedant
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 23,576
Likes: 38
From: EXTREME southwest CT
There is some residual oil IF the drainback valve in the oil filter is holding.
(See the Kinser mini Mopar oilfilter page)
Think about where the sender is in relation to the crank, rod and cam bearings.
But there is not the sort of pressure needed to maintain a proper hydrodynamic cushion.
Bearing metal is soft (it has to be)
There is an explosion jamming a couple of pounds of metal into the bearing and twisting it.
At 600 rpm idle this happens 300 times a minute, or FIVE TIMES A SECOND.
This is why the first few seconds count.
(See the Kinser mini Mopar oilfilter page)
Think about where the sender is in relation to the crank, rod and cam bearings.
But there is not the sort of pressure needed to maintain a proper hydrodynamic cushion.
Bearing metal is soft (it has to be)
There is an explosion jamming a couple of pounds of metal into the bearing and twisting it.
At 600 rpm idle this happens 300 times a minute, or FIVE TIMES A SECOND.
This is why the first few seconds count.