That be the one. And now the enthusiasts that used to buy their stuff won't let it into their shops nor onto their vehicles.

Back to break-in procedures. Here's a link from Power News Magazine that crsmiffy provided on the 335 Series forum, which has a lot of interesting ideas, including this:
Makes lots of sense to me, but what do y'all think?

 

Does sound reasonable. During the 15 min cool downs you could pull a couple of plugs and look at the color/condition. If the dyno has an AFR sensing setup, you can use that for some tuning too.

 

Note:

1) He says use 4th gear.
Most modern motorcycles come with at least 6 speed gearbox.
..This is moot on a test stand anyhow.

2)He says the only reason for the cool down is because motorcycle dynos don't provide adequate cooling air.
If your dyno has a large fixed radiator and fan on the test stand AND you're monitoring of the water temperature does not indicate overheating, there's really no reason to wait.
(time IS money)

3) Also, the finishes and metallurgy he is dealing with in a modern motorcycle engine are much finer than you will find in a cast iron block.
(chrome plated steel liners, or Nickle-Silicon Carbide plating on aluminum, OR ceramic bores)
I might do 1/3, 2/3, and 7/8 throttle runs.
(these pistons aren't drilled for gas ports, are they?)

4) Obviously he mis-speaks about heat cycling, and DNS about gasket set or dissimilar metals relaxing and falling in love.

Just as you (Gary) get an uneasy feeling about someone who presents themselves as a authority and misses a simple but important point.
So do I.
I feel his ideas and methodology are sound, perhaps a little much for a 600# lump of Detroit wonder metal.

 

Well, I don't take anyone's input fully - except, of course, that provided here on FTE.

Seriously though, I try to implement what he calls the Next Door Neighbor technique: Pretend the recommendations were written by your next door neighbor on a piece of scrap paper. In other words, take all the prestige and expert status away from those who provide the recommendations and consider them logically.

For instance, on this engine build I've gotten a recommendation from a very well thought of engine builder to use large-runner, high intake port aluminum heads and a single plane intake manifold. And that was in spite of my originally stated goal of building a low-RPM torque monster and my reiterating that goal when he recommended that combo. Yet he stood by it. But that combination flies in the face of everything I've ever read for building low-end torque. However, I am taking a lot of other guidance from that same expert. So I find I have to evaluate everything I'm told as many (most?) people have their pet theories that don't always hold water.

But, back to break-in: While I agree that MotoMan is mainly targeting bikes, I do think his basic theory holds water - that break-in on things from the factory happens quickly due to the small cross-hatch pattern they use. However, I wonder if my machine shop uses such a small pattern? Sounds like something to ask them. And, I understand about the potential lack of need for cool-down if their cooling system is adequate, but that might provide time to do jet swaps, change initial lead, and pull plugs as Bill suggested.

Also, I think his idea of graduated pulls makes sense, and the graduations would be both in throttle and RPM. Perhaps the 1/3 and 2/3 pulls you recommend, Jim. But I think I'd like to finish up with one or more full-throttle pulls, although the RPM range would be from, say, 2000 to 5500. Does that sound reasonable?

 

Now let's go back to the oil control discussion since I need to take a decision on what to do. George Reid's book entitled Ford 351 Cleveland Engines, which is oddly named given its extensive coverage of 400's, says:But TMI recommends modifying the system by using their grooved cam bearings, plugging one of the passages, and opening up the other, as shown in these two pics:



On the other hand, my machine shop says that there's no need to do that for my purposes with the truck. And I'm inclined to agree with that, especially when you combine that with this line from the book: "...high performance street Clevelands have adequate oil supply to all critical points throughout the engine, proving Ford engineers did their job well." Further, at another point it says "...some cam manufacturers discourage this practice due to concerns about oil starvation at the cam, lifters, and valve-train with hydraulic lifters."

Having said all that, I know that Dad's engine always had what seemed like low oil pressure and Rusty shows similar pressure - about 15 psi at hot idle and 40 - 45 psi when hot and turning 2000 RPM. So, what say you experts? Is there really a problem for street-driven vehicles, or is this much ado about little? (Apologies to The Bard, but saying "nothing" was incorrect as there is pressure, just not a lot.)

 

Gary,
There is no real 'cross hatch' on a carbide plated or ceramic motorcycle bore.
They are what they are...
The cross hatch (or inherent roughness of other processes) not only provides 'peaks' to abrade the rings, but it provides 'valleys' to hold oil on the cylinder walls.
Unless raw fuel is washing it off...

I understand that you will want some time to tune.
But 15 minutes cool down each round is another 45 minutes you may not need to pay for.
Watch the wideband, pressure and temp sensors.
Hopefully they have good mufflers so you can hear whats going on in the engine.
New aluminum heads, I wouldn't expect any detonation. (don't know anything about 335's at this power level)
A good dyno operator might make a recommendation about timing or fuel that you might not notice, or notice the trend.
You're going to have decide what to do about that.

It can seem brutal on video, but horses chomp at the bit, and thoroughbreds were born to run.

 

Re; Oiling
I don't know nearly as much as Tim.
I don't know how much time you expect to spend at or above 6k.
But then, I wouldn't recommend a high rise single plane intake for a street driven truck either.

I suppose he has his formula and wants to stick with it.
(probably NEEDS to, in order to deliver on his numbers)

Personally I wouldn't want 500 Hp in a pickup.

 

WOW this oiling thing is tough, guess my understanding was off before. And well still isn't there, wish I had a bare block in front of me to look at, only so much info can be found online. I got a few questions to help me wrap my head around this.

So if I'm understanding this right the only oil passages that run the length of the block are the 2 lifter bores? So before oil can get to the 6th main it has to cross 8 lifters?

How restrictive is this passage, for example if the passage is off to the side of the lifter bores to the point that you can see all the way through it from front to back with the lifters in then it's not very restrictive is it? But if it's centered on the lifter bores then all the oil has to work it's way around the lifters, this would be very bad.

I can't seem to find what feeds the drivers side lifter bores? Is this the reason for the groove around the outside of the cam bearing? Pic from Tim's site \/


These cam bearings have a slot that goes all the way through, so for the cam oiling location modification he would basically install them rotated so the slot in the bearing is no longer aligned with the hole in the block but off to the side? This is to force the oil to pass through the groove in the back before reaching the cam to act as a restriction? It would also of course better locate the main oil wedge.

The reason for the pipe plug in the mains is to block flow in the bore that feeds the passenger side lifter bore from splitting off to the main, the idea being that it will increase flow to the lifter bore?

Could that simply be accomplished with a main bearing that blocks the hole? Shoot even if you can't find a bearing with only one hole just install is flipped around so the now extra hole is on the wrong side.

Unless the bore between the two vertical passages is too small to flow enough to feed both I don't see the benefit?

So even if it's decided that oil flow to the front mains must be restricted to maintain flow to the rear mains isn't a big pipe plug a drastic and risky step that could lead to a crack? Wouldn't it best be done by controlling the size and placement of holes in the main bearings, and/or just pressing in a restriction so less iron needs to be removed?

Or better yet instead of restricting flow to other places, create more flow to those that need it, can the bores/passages that are too small be enlarged? Or I understand it's a common mod to add a secondary oil supply to the back of the block?

 

Jim - I really don't think it is going to be a rip-roaring 500 Hp engine. 500 ft-lbs yes, but not horsepower. The main reason for that is my cam choice, which is as yet still up in the air. But I will err on the conservative side as I think that is the way to get both low-end power and efficiency. Further, I'll go undersized on the carb, and either use a 1406 Eddy rated at 600 or an 1806 rated at 650. So my guess is it will run out of breath by 5252 and, since the torque will peak at 2500 and start coming down, my math says it won't reach 500 Hp.

Brute - I just happen to have a spare block "sitting around. Let me see if I can get some pics that include where the passages are and go. That'll help me get my head around it as well. Good idea!

 

Sometimes, rather often, I hate this site. Typed a long post, it ate it.

Dyno, I can only assume we are talking a session where you are there and in charge. It's nothing too complicated just keep the goals in mind. A dyno when it comes down to it only does one primary thing, gather info. So first make sure you maximize that. That generally means computer data acquisition recording of as many parameters as possible, bring a USB stick and a video camera. Secondary is to help you break in the engine well.

So assuming you still need to break it in, and in general first priority, start with full throttle pulls. The key to safety here is to make sure all is good on the engine, valve adjustment is a good one to double check for example. Then oil temp, that it's up to a good operating temp and doesn't get to hot. Oil temp is much more important then coolant temp on something like this. During this/these pull gather the info you need to adjust full throttle mixture and more important timing. Find out if 36 or 38 total is best for example.

Then it will likely need to cool but you need to keep the oil flowing so use that time for the second priority, to gather info on idle/tip in tune. Best timing and mixture in the first 1/4 of throttle. The idle screws are a great cheater here, they can help you change the mixture a bit in the first 1/4 of throttle without stopping to change metering rods.

At this point safe to assume you'll need to stop the engine to make some significant changes and decide how much more time to pay for.

Third priority is transition information gathering, that is mid throttle that passes the transition from primary to secondary on the carb.

Forth priority is adding in vacuum if you think it's worth it to pay for dyno time for that.

From the first pull and cool down on it's all adapting to what is needed, if it runs great then great keep going, if it has issues stop to solve those. No need to make some grand plan, it will all fall apart.

But absolutely make sure you don't leave without taking with you every scrap of data, that is what you paid for. Hassle them for copies of everything both paper and digital.

 

Jim, crosshatch, IDK what your getting at with ceramic/carbide plated. I've been out of the machine shop game for 15 years are we talking the "stones" used in the hone?

I'll fully admit I'm not up on all the latest, I'm cheaper these days and tend to buy used stuff and push it, I haven't had a "new" engine machined in maybe 10 years. But FWIW my thinking would tend to lean towards a tight fit(w/coated skirt) and deeper/courser crosshatch. This would be to maximize life by leaving the most metal and most oil on the bore.

Dual or single plane, I personally think this difference is blown out of proportion. Yes in general the common knowledge is true but the difference isn't that drastic. I'd take a great single plane over a crappy dual plane on a mild truck engine any day. To my mind the runners are the more important aspect, that they be sized right, equal length, and as strait as possible. Secondly would be the plenum, lots of volume, if dual plane that there be a full divider, if single plane that no two ports that time close are physically close. Third is transition between carb and manifold, a well shaped spacer. Forth is carb air horn.

For example I'm a big fan of the old school torkerII(the one with the twisted carb) manifold on engines with siamesed ports. A torkerII with the right spacer on a 401 AMC with a cam for mid range torque in a Jeep is AWSOME.

So maybe Tim sees it similarly, that for an engine like yours with big flow heads there isn't a good dual plane that works and matches the flow characteristics of the heads well enough. Bottom line though two things are true, ya need to pick a cam first and there are plenty of options for manifolds, some might just be a pain in the **** and need some extra work to work well. Or maybe he has worked with so many race orientated engines that his brain is more or less always in that mode.

 

These TFS heads only have 195cc 2V runners.

Weiand makes the 8010 Action Plus high rise dual plane for 351M/400.
Holley Performance Products Action +Plus Intake Manifold*8010
They don't say much about it except idle -6,000 rpm.

I would have thought this a better fit for a street pickup than a "high runner single plane".
Tim knows what he's doing.
Told Gary 500/500 is no problem with his combo.

Don't go undersized on the carb if you have a big port manifold.
Remember, everything needs to work together.
Trying to stifle a 'built' engine with a small cam or carb will throw it out of balance and it will do nothing well.

Remember what I said to the Kentucky kid that wanted a mud bogger he could haul firewood in?
Mild, medium or wild. (choose ONE)
Optimize it for -whatever- and deal with the consequences.
500 foot lbs in a 1/2 ton pickup... it wouldn't matter if it only made 175 Hp.
It would still be an animal.

 

I tend to agree Jim, though I think the edelbrock performer rpm air gap(7564) is a better manifold cause of the height, it makes for straighter runners. I think with spacers it could work very well. It's just an additional hassle and cost.

Agree on the carb to, all has to work together, but with the choices being 650 or 800 it's hard to justify the 800 unless he picks a big cam and manifold.

 

I don't know how much experience you have had in building and tuning engines, but what I have learned over the years is this, single plane divided manifolds (Offenhauser 360) good top end power, lack in the low end. 180° intakes, most factory V8s, many aftermarket style, Wiend, Edelbrock, Holley etc. much better low end torque, some top end trade off. Open plenum designs, Edelbrock Torker, etc. Good mid to top end, some low end sacrifice on smaller engines. The absolute best intakes are the tuned port design like the Chrysler long and short ram, Ford Cross-Boss, AMC cross ram, Chevy Dual TBI cross ram, Early Z-28 cross ram etc. or the Individual runner style, Ford Medium and High Riser 427, the 1966 289 Trans-Am dual Holley setup.

If you can find a combination that does what you need, then use it. The one problem I used to find with the open plenum designs was the need for a lot of accelerator pump to carry enough gas until that half gallon of air got moving fast enough to carry the gas along. Smaller ports give higher velocities at low rpm, too big a set of ports (Boss 302 is a prime example) need very high rpm to be effective. Shelby reduced the port size on a Boss 302 test engine to 1/4 the original size. He lost 500 rpm off the top of the power band, but added 2000 to the bottom, a net gain of 1500 rpm to the power band.

I would love to have an EFI 460 intake like Chevy put on the 1996 up 454s, it wraps around a little over a full circle to get nice long runners for torque (still doesn't make as much low down as a 460).

 

Could be super cool and do an Offy dual port. I personally love the theory behind them, never tried to use one though. And not so great on the application, and you'd have to mod the heads to get the full benefit.

I'm just brainstorming but if the divider was vertical instead of horizontal and went all the way to the valve stem I think it could really work well.

Offy Dual Port - Clevelands Forever!