Better gearing helps, no doubt. So does being a ****-ton of less weight.

 

Actually I don't have to scan my mag. Just read the damn article before you post it to prove me wrong......

From the first paragraph on page 2.

 

Oops...you got me on a car...(A car I like very much and will be owning when the dealer gets a GT coupe in RED) Now lets get back to your 5.4l vs a 6.4, twin turbo diesel....

 

Originally Posted by Jrfish007
1.you can keep your algae poop, I'll burn the algae . BTW, the new 6.2 is E80 where as the 6.7 is B20. But putting ethanol into the tank is alcohol abuse in my book.

B20? Bah, only if you regard the manufacturers recommendations. Algea is only one of the many BIO options for Diesel.

2. No one here is talking about tuning or modding. That is a different story all together.

Sounds like another sore subject. Sorry. Please explain your modding capabilities on a V10 just from a simple tune? I'd be interested in knowing. Really.

3. Diesel engines are built with heavier components because the fuel expands more creating more pressure build up in the cylinder. This causes more force on the piston and more power (i.e. torque). This requires sturdier components, it a cause and effect thing, not really a big advantage. Also remember those stronger components weigh more, which means they have bigger parasitic loses.

That is a very good point. 4-600 more pounds can be seen when comparing gas vs diesel power plants, But we already know that as this discussion started sometime ago with a PSD out weighting a V10 at the very beginning.

4. What makes you think gas engines can't go under water? Jeeps do it all the time.

My point was the entire ignition system i.e sparkplugs/ cap and rotor.... I seen plenty of jeeps in water. Just not under it while continuing to run

5. Comparing the V10 to the Scorpio is a bad idea, you're talking about comparing a brand new engine with the latest and greatest technology to an engine designed almost 10 years ago (more then 10 really because it's just an expanded modular engine).

I wanted to compare the latest engines...sorry.

6. And yes, we have already agreed the diesel is the better choice for towing, so most semi's are diesel.

Cool.

the main arguments at this point in this thread are:
1. which is faster when towing up a hill and
2. gas is better for the the occasional tower who doesn't drive to many miles, unless they have $7k burning a hole in their pocket.

Hard to determine when there are 5 million plus responses...




Originally Posted by phillips91
Actually turbos were invented for airplanes. Before jet engines came out airplanes were limited in speed because the air was too thin at high altitudes. Diesels trucks didn't get them until about 20 years after planes.

Your hp and tq numbers are correct, but power at the crank means nothing. Tq to the wheels is what gets a load moving and keeps it moving. That is why my 5.4 with a 5 speed manual and 4.10 gears will get a load moving faster and easier than a 6.4 with a ts and 3.55 gears.

The mod motors make 80% of peak torque at 1,000 rpm. Let's say the 6.4 makes 90% of peak torque at 1,000 rpm(very generous number). My 5.4 has a 5.72 1st gear and 4.10 gear for a 23.45 final drive ratio. It makes 350 peak torque, so 280 at 1,000 rpm's. The 6.4 has a 3.11 1st gear and a 3.55 rear end for an 11.0 final drive ratio. It makes 650 peak torque, so 585 at 1,000 rpm. The hp numbers at 1,000 rpms are 53 for my 5.4 and 111 for the 6.4. My 5.4 will be turning 43 wheel rpm and the 6.4 will be turning 91 wheel rpm(roughly 3 mph for me and 6 mph for the 6.4).

Rear wheel tq is as follows
53 hp x 5252/43 wheel rpms=6,473 for my 5.4
111 hp x 5252/91 wheel rpms=6,406 for the 6.4.

If my 5.4 can do that, imagine what a properly geared v10 can do

I think you will find more turbos on Diesel power plants than anyother type. Which was the basis of my comment. Not that turbos were design specifically with the Diesel engine inmind...initially.

>>>mountaineer27
thats a true statement but diesel isnt oil. its a solvent too and will mix with water the same as gas

Hmm..Diesel fuel is a lubricant. Tis why some fuel injection systems rely on it to lubricate the system as its running. Hard to classify a solvent with that. But I need to do more research.

 

Diesel fuel does offer far more lubricity then gasoline, but saying its not a solvent either is not true. It works quite well removing all the nasty dirt and grease off my motorcycles air filter. Many other people use it as a parts cleaner too since it isn't as destructive as gasoline on foam/plastic parts.

 

It's a good read. Diesel fuel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

Diesel is definitely a "solvent" in terms of it's degreasing ability

Ever wash something in kerosene?

 

Kind of like WD40 right.... Cleans well but lubricates.

 

Hope that clears some things up

 

Whether it is a car, truck, motorcycle or whatever else it is, the same principal applies. No matter how much hp or tq you generate at the crankshaft, it doesn't mean a thing unless you can put it to the ground. The point of the mustang article(in the mag they break it down in all gears, not just first like the webpage) is to show that with the proper gearing a car/truck with less hp and tq at the crank can put more power to the ground.

Go back and read my reply to the other guy about the 5.4 and 6.4. I never said I could outpull it with a 5.4. I said that because of gearing it can get a load moving easier. One of the main arguments against gassers for the last 20 years has been that they can't get a load moving as easily as a diesel. With past generations technology, that is true. Just look at the video of Mike with his 4 speed auto and 3.73 geared v10. He didn't have the low rpm power to get the load moving and get the engine in the peak power band. That same tranny and rear end combo wouldn't affect a diesel because it is already in it's peak power band as soon as you press the gas pedal. With the newer trannys having better gearing, that eliminates that part of the equation. I took a 5.4 and outpulled Mike's v10, the 7.3 in the video(and the 7.3 in my driveway) and with more road I wouldn't have been but about 10 mph behind the 6.0 and 6.4(I was only 15 mph behind them, even with a shorter road). All because of one word. Gearing.

 

1. well... whatever. I didn't buy a V10 with being green in mind, I was only concerned about the green in my wallet.

2. ehh... the modding isn't a sore subject. It's pretty simple really, on a turbo engine (gas or diesel) you turn up the boost. On a N/A engine it's not so simple. So of course the PSD will out mod the V10, that's simple. For that reason I don't see much point going down that road, because a turbo engine will always be easier to mod, just replace some controller and make more power. the only possible method to keep up will be to say that with that $7k I save, I buy a supercharger. But that wouldn't make sense, just buy the PSD from the start and still make more power.

3. True points.

4. V10's don't have caps and rotor's, like most modern cars/trucks. while you do have point, I still don't think a PSD would be very good under water with all the electronics. Your probably referencing older vehicles in which case you may have a point.

5. I'm just saying that because some people are comparing the V10 to say the 7.3, which doesn't make sense to me. It's like comparing an old muscle car to a modern Ferrari. They were built for different markets. Just like the 7.3 and V10 where built and designed under different economics and for different markets at different times.

6. Yup, diesel is the better choice, I just wish it didn't cost $7k. If the PSD was $1k, I would have gotten one without a second thought.

 

Not exactly...If that Mustang weighed another 1500lbs, the Camaro would have ate it for lunch. Even if you had no drivetrain loss it wouldn't matter if the torque and horsepower numbers are lower than an equally weighted vehicle. It's part gearing, but it's also a lower weight that helped that 'stang. The Mustang's saving grace is the hp/weight ratio. There is no substitute for hp/torque numbers. You can gear a V10 to a 7.87 if you'd like, and climb a tree with it...then lets see if you can go any faster than 65mph. The 6.4 makes SIX HUNDRED AND FIFTY lb/ft of low end torque. The V10 is 400-something at damn near redline. Period.

 

Would love to continue the discussion, but I'm off to a call...

 

Actually it's max torque is at 3250 RPM, not even close to the 5200 redline. And it makes 90% of that at 1500 RPM. The fact that it's a V10 and not V8 allows Ford to put a more aggressive cam in and move the power band down. You can put a more aggressive cam in a V8, but it will idle like crap, the extra cylinders help smooth that idle out. This is why so many manufactures used to make V12's for high end cars.

And that's 457 ft-lb, about 200 less than the 6.4.

 

Go back and read my reply again. I said with the proper gearing a car/truck with less crank hp/tq can put more power to the ground. Regardless of weight or times in the 1/4, the Mustang would have still put more power to the ground even if it was 3,000 lbs heavier. It would have been slower, but it would have still made less power at the crank and more power at the wheels. And for the record, the Mustang was only 200 lbs less than the Camaro. Can you tell a difference in how your truck runs if you have one passenger with you?

Then go back and read my calculations. Even though the 6.4 has 650 lbs of tq at the crank, the v10 still put more power to the ground when both were ran at peak tq doing the same speed. You can take an engine with 10,000 lbs of torque at the crank at 1,000 rpm's, but if it redlines at 1,000 rpm and you have to run a crazy tall gear just to turn 65 mph, then you are going to put less power to the ground than a v10 with 457 tq. It's a pretty simple equation. When you run out of rpm's you have to shift to a taller gear to go faster. When you switch to a taller gear you are still making the same power at the crank but much less at the wheels. The more times you have to shift, the more power you are losing to the wheels. The psd has a redline about half of what the v10 is, so it has to shift more to do the same speed.