Gas vs PSD
Senior User
Joined: Jan 2010
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I wasn't arguing that the psd was faster. I was arguing in favor of the gasser in that aspect with my post. You were saying saying the psd makes more torque than the v10, so I was giving you an example that shows that even though the psd makes an ungodly amount of torque at the crank when compared to the v10, it doesn't all translate into torque at the wheels. The psd puts more torque to the ground when comparing them in the same gear at the same rpm, but as the psd runs out of rpms and has to change gears, the v10 will catch up to it and pass it.
Elder User
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 650
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From: WV
This thread is getting pointless....So I'll add more to the rant. 
I am an advocate of DIESEL technology. I only wish I new more.
Advantages over GAS
Runs LEAN mixtures. This means less fuel.
BIO fuel READY. Who else can say there truck is burning the poop created by Algea?
Easily tuneable. Upwards of 150-350+ HP and 500lbs of TQ from a TUNE. Not counting Nitrous, CNG, Propane (Not recommended).
Diesel TRUCK motors are built with heavy dutier components.
High compressioon ratios are DIESEL. Higher compression equals higher energy...
With the right air intake....you can even run it underwater.
A heavily modified Diesel truck has much better street manners in comparision to a GAS machine making the same power. I'm talking over 500HP here.
Turbos were desiged for DIESELs.
Gas is a solvent. One teaspoon will contaminate 100,000 gallons of water. Oil...just floats. Look at BP. Think you can clean GAS outta the gulf?
HP and TORQUE is readily available at LOWER RPM. Who wants to hit 4500RPM anyways to meet max Horsepower?
Vehicle Specifications and Options - Ford Commercial Trucks
6.8 Horsepower 362hp @ 4,750RPM
Torque 457 lb.-ft. @ 3,250RPM
6.4 Horsepower 350hp @ 3,000RPM
Torque 650 lb.-ft. @ 2,000RPM
Granted, I am only looking at Ford and the Scorpion Diesel isn't listed which is why I reference the 6.4.
How many gas fed Freight liners do you see going down the highway at 80MPH?
I am an advocate of DIESEL technology. I only wish I new more.
Advantages over GAS
Runs LEAN mixtures. This means less fuel.
BIO fuel READY. Who else can say there truck is burning the poop created by Algea?
Easily tuneable. Upwards of 150-350+ HP and 500lbs of TQ from a TUNE. Not counting Nitrous, CNG, Propane (Not recommended).
Diesel TRUCK motors are built with heavy dutier components.
High compressioon ratios are DIESEL. Higher compression equals higher energy...
With the right air intake....you can even run it underwater.
A heavily modified Diesel truck has much better street manners in comparision to a GAS machine making the same power. I'm talking over 500HP here.
Turbos were desiged for DIESELs.
Gas is a solvent. One teaspoon will contaminate 100,000 gallons of water. Oil...just floats. Look at BP. Think you can clean GAS outta the gulf?
HP and TORQUE is readily available at LOWER RPM. Who wants to hit 4500RPM anyways to meet max Horsepower?
Vehicle Specifications and Options - Ford Commercial Trucks
6.8 Horsepower 362hp @ 4,750RPM
Torque 457 lb.-ft. @ 3,250RPM
6.4 Horsepower 350hp @ 3,000RPM
Torque 650 lb.-ft. @ 2,000RPM
Granted, I am only looking at Ford and the Scorpion Diesel isn't listed which is why I reference the 6.4.
How many gas fed Freight liners do you see going down the highway at 80MPH?
. BTW, the new 6.2 is E80 where as the 6.7 is B20. But putting ethanol into the tank is alcohol abuse in my book.2. No one here is talking about tuning or modding. That is a different story all together.
3. Diesel engines are built with heavier components because the fuel expands more creating more pressure build up in the cylinder. This causes more force on the piston and more power (i.e. torque). This requires sturdier components, it a cause and effect thing, not really a big advantage. Also remember those stronger components weigh more, which means they have bigger parasitic loses.
4. What makes you think gas engines can't go under water? Jeeps do it all the time.
5. Comparing the V10 to the Scorpio is a bad idea, you're talking about comparing a brand new engine with the latest and greatest technology to an engine designed almost 10 years ago (more then 10 really because it's just an expanded modular engine).
6. And yes, we have already agreed the diesel is the better choice for towing, so most semi's are diesel.
the main arguments at this point in this thread are:
1. which is faster when towing up a hill and
2. gas is better for the the occasional tower who doesn't drive to many miles, unless they have $7k burning a hole in their pocket.
Postmaster
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,724
Likes: 4
From: Rogersville, TN
Your hp and tq numbers are correct, but power at the crank means nothing. Tq to the wheels is what gets a load moving and keeps it moving. That is why my 5.4 with a 5 speed manual and 4.10 gears will get a load moving faster and easier than a 6.4 with a ts and 3.55 gears.
The mod motors make 80% of peak torque at 1,000 rpm. Let's say the 6.4 makes 90% of peak torque at 1,000 rpm(very generous number). My 5.4 has a 5.72 1st gear and 4.10 gear for a 23.45 final drive ratio. It makes 350 peak torque, so 280 at 1,000 rpm's. The 6.4 has a 3.11 1st gear and a 3.55 rear end for an 11.0 final drive ratio. It makes 650 peak torque, so 585 at 1,000 rpm. The hp numbers at 1,000 rpms are 53 for my 5.4 and 111 for the 6.4. My 5.4 will be turning 43 wheel rpm and the 6.4 will be turning 91 wheel rpm(roughly 3 mph for me and 6 mph for the 6.4).
Rear wheel tq is as follows
53 hp x 5252/43 wheel rpms=6,473 for my 5.4
111 hp x 5252/91 wheel rpms=6,406 for the 6.4.
If my 5.4 can do that, imagine what a properly geared v10 can do
Postmaster
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,724
Likes: 4
From: Rogersville, TN
If you think rear wheel tq isn't what counts, pick up the most recent copy of motor trend where they compared the 5.0 mustang to the camaro and challenger. Both the camaro and challenger have more hp and tq, but the mustang beat both of them. What was motor trends explanation? The mustang was putting more torque to the ground and they did the exact same equations I did to come up with their numbers.
Senior User
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 434
Likes: 0
Actually turbos were invented for airplanes. Before jet engines came out airplanes were limited in speed because the air was too thin at high altitudes. Diesels trucks didn't get them until about 20 years after planes.
Your hp and tq numbers are correct, but power at the crank means nothing. Tq to the wheels is what gets a load moving and keeps it moving. That is why my 5.4 with a 5 speed manual and 4.10 gears will get a load moving faster and easier than a 6.4 with a ts and 3.55 gears.
The mod motors make 80% of peak torque at 1,000 rpm. Let's say the 6.4 makes 90% of peak torque at 1,000 rpm(very generous number). My 5.4 has a 5.72 1st gear and 4.10 gear for a 23.45 final drive ratio. It makes 350 peak torque, so 280 at 1,000 rpm's. The 6.4 has a 3.11 1st gear and a 3.55 rear end for an 11.0 final drive ratio. It makes 650 peak torque, so 585 at 1,000 rpm. The hp numbers at 1,000 rpms are 53 for my 5.4 and 111 for the 6.4. My 5.4 will be turning 43 wheel rpm and the 6.4 will be turning 91 wheel rpm(roughly 3 mph for me and 6 mph for the 6.4).
Rear wheel tq is as follows
53 hp x 5252/43 wheel rpms=6,473 for my 5.4
111 hp x 5252/91 wheel rpms=6,406 for the 6.4.
If my 5.4 can do that, imagine what a properly geared v10 can do
Your hp and tq numbers are correct, but power at the crank means nothing. Tq to the wheels is what gets a load moving and keeps it moving. That is why my 5.4 with a 5 speed manual and 4.10 gears will get a load moving faster and easier than a 6.4 with a ts and 3.55 gears.
The mod motors make 80% of peak torque at 1,000 rpm. Let's say the 6.4 makes 90% of peak torque at 1,000 rpm(very generous number). My 5.4 has a 5.72 1st gear and 4.10 gear for a 23.45 final drive ratio. It makes 350 peak torque, so 280 at 1,000 rpm's. The 6.4 has a 3.11 1st gear and a 3.55 rear end for an 11.0 final drive ratio. It makes 650 peak torque, so 585 at 1,000 rpm. The hp numbers at 1,000 rpms are 53 for my 5.4 and 111 for the 6.4. My 5.4 will be turning 43 wheel rpm and the 6.4 will be turning 91 wheel rpm(roughly 3 mph for me and 6 mph for the 6.4).
Rear wheel tq is as follows
53 hp x 5252/43 wheel rpms=6,473 for my 5.4
111 hp x 5252/91 wheel rpms=6,406 for the 6.4.
If my 5.4 can do that, imagine what a properly geared v10 can do
Posting Guru
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 1,058
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From: emporium
3. Diesel engines are built with heavier components because the fuel expands more creating more pressure build up in the cylinder. This causes more force on the piston and more power (i.e. torque). This requires sturdier components, it a cause and effect thing, not really a big advantage. Also remember those stronger components weigh more, which means they have bigger parasitic loses.
Gas is a solvent. One teaspoon will contaminate 100,000 gallons of water. Oil...just floats. Look at BP. Think you can clean GAS outta the gulf?
Posting Guru
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,313
Likes: 0
From: Sunny, Snowy, CO
11,158 ft, with a 7-9% grade at various points. Eastbound is the harder pull.
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Posting Guru
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,313
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From: Sunny, Snowy, CO
So in all these other "hill" videos, the V10 is actually weaker at the end, than at the beginning?
Postmaster
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,724
Likes: 4
From: Rogersville, TN
Show me some proof of why you are right and that I am wrong. Show me where my math is wrong. Or better yet, do this simple experiment. Take a 6.4 with a manual and put it in 4th gear. Slow down until you get it down to 1,000 rpms. Then floor it. Watch how slow it accelerates. Then take the same truck and put it in 1st gear and do 1,000 rpm's. Then floor it again. Did it accelerate a lot faster than it did in 4th gear? How can it possibly do that since it is making the exact same hp and tq at the crankshaft both times??? Could it be because the gearing in the tranny affected how much tq was actually put to the ground?
Posting Guru
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,313
Likes: 0
From: Sunny, Snowy, CO
If you think rear wheel tq isn't what counts, pick up the most recent copy of motor trend where they compared the 5.0 mustang to the camaro and challenger. Both the camaro and challenger have more hp and tq, but the mustang beat both of them. What was motor trends explanation? The mustang was putting more torque to the ground and they did the exact same equations I did to come up with their numbers.
Actually, it's the HP to Weight Ratio that makes the Mustang a screamer. NOWHERE in that article does it talk about being able to "put that torque to ground".
The Mustang is much lighter, and one will be gracing my driveway soon.
Postmaster
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,724
Likes: 4
From: Rogersville, TN
2010 Chevrolet Camaro SS vs 2010 Dodge Challenger SRT8 vs 2011 Ford Mustang GT Comparison - Test Numbers - Motor Trend
Actually, it's the HP to Weight Ratio that makes the Mustang a screamer. NOWHERE in that article does it talk about being able to "put that torque to ground".
The Mustang is much lighter, and one will be gracing my driveway soon.
Actually, it's the HP to Weight Ratio that makes the Mustang a screamer. NOWHERE in that article does it talk about being able to "put that torque to ground".
The Mustang is much lighter, and one will be gracing my driveway soon.
Posting Guru
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,313
Likes: 0
From: Sunny, Snowy, CO
Show me some proof of why you are right and that I am wrong. Show me where my math is wrong. Or better yet, do this simple experiment. Take a 6.4 with a manual and put it in 4th gear. Slow down until you get it down to 1,000 rpms. Then floor it. Watch how slow it accelerates. Then take the same truck and put it in 1st gear and do 1,000 rpm's. Then floor it again. Did it accelerate a lot faster than it did in 4th gear? How can it possibly do that since it is making the exact same hp and tq at the crankshaft both times??? Could it be because the gearing in the tranny affected how much tq was actually put to the ground?
Postmaster
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 4,724
Likes: 4
From: Rogersville, TN
I never said my 5.4 will tow with a 6.4. I just said that with the right gearing in mine and the most common gearing in the 6.4, my 5.4 will get the load moving just as easily. At some point we have to shift out of 1st gear and the 6.4 will run off and leave me, but that is talking about a 5.4 that is 100 hp behind the 6.4. The v10 has 12 more hp than the 6.4. Put the same gearing behind it my 5.4 has and it will get the load moving easier than the 6.4 AND it will be able to outpull it in the higher gears.