I'm pretty sure my 2000 5.4 would beat Bill's 99 v10 in a shootout because of that very reason. Better tranny gearing off the line(5.72 1st vs his 2.7 1st) and 4.10 rear end vs his 3.73. Even though I am almost certain I would beat him by a good margain, I wouldn't even begin to claim that a 5.4 is a better towing engine than a v10. Put my engine in his van and his engine in my truck and the results would be laughable.

Just by gearing alone you were able to get a 4.6 to run with a TUNED PI v10. Imagine how bad the 5.4 with the 6 speed would have beaten it....... That's why I feel how I do about gearing when it comes to these kinds of tests.

 

Who said IDI?

 

Are you running stock tires? I have the 3.73s in mine and on top of that 33's. The 3.73s are a horrible gear for pulling with trucks configured like yours and mine. Ford should have never put 3.73s in from the factory, especially with the 4R100s fairly tall first.

 

I don't think any of us diesel guys that have stayed in this debate have called the v10 lowly or said it can't do the job. My only "argument" is to make the competition fair. If you want to run a 2009 3v v10 with a 5 speed auto with 4.30 gears, that is fine. But don't say it's better than a diesel because it beat a 10 year old diesel with a 4 speed auto and 3.73 gears. Run it against a diesel from the same generation, with the same tranny and reasonably close gearing. I could go with 3.73 vs 4.10 and still consider it fair. But not when people start talking 4.30's or 4.56's vs 3.73's.

I also don't think it's a fair to say that a diesel is better than a v10 because Tom's 6.4, 5 speed TS absolutely spanked a previous generation v10 with a 4 speed. Fair would be Tom's 6.4 against a 3v v10 with a TS.

 

pulled the grade in fancy gap virginia no problems except the fog.7500 lb trailor and a 67 dodge dart in it. 2003 with a 6.0 .one of the bad ones.173,000 and running great.

 

Yup. I tried all 3 times to get a 3V truck up there. Nobody with a newer V10 ever showed up!

On edit:

Wouldn't another way of being fair involve trying each truck loaded to capacity? Mike's V10 with 3.73s is rated for a GCWR of 16,500 lbs, which gives it capacity to tow around 10,000 lbs.

An '05+ SRW PSD truck, like mine or Matt's 6.0, is rated for 23,000 lbs GCWR or around 15,000 lbs trailer weight.

I'd be willing to bet Mike's truck would make it up the hill at least as fast as mine if we were both loaded to capacity.

You can also consider how mike's truck made it up the hill at 25 MPH loaded nearly 2,000 lbs OVER what it was rated for. I think he has more to brag about than Matt or I do...

 

Same combo as you 3.73's and 33's.

 

I never thought about it that way Tom. I'll have to go out and give the old girl a pat instead of complaining to her she needs new gears and oh why can't she have a TorqShift and...

Of course later on I'll be back complaining of the same things but at least she can feel good for awhile.

 

That is a "limitation" on the truck, not the engine though. The same v10 can be found in 350's, 450's and 550's with a MUCH higher "recommended" gcwr. What happens when you load the 2v v10 down to the max of a 550? 10 mph? I bet your 6.4 loaded to a 550's max would still do just fine. For comparison of that testing method, I had an Escape that was rated to tow around 2500 lbs. If it topped the hill at faster than 25 mph does that make the 2.3 a better towing engine than the v10?
When it comes to towing I go by the GVWR and RAWR, not Ford's GCWR. Ford rates my 5.4 at a 15k lb gcwr, which means it should max out at about 9k lbs. I can legally tow 14k lbs without exceeding any real numbers. So another fair way to test them would be to load them down to their legal max and see how they do.

 

That is a limitation on the rear end ratio rather than the rest of the truck! With 4.10s it's rated for 18,000 lbs.

 

Take my 5.4 with a 4.10 that is rated at 15k and compare it to that v10 that is rated at 18k with a 4.10. It is the same truck, same rear end, same everything. So what is the limiting factor there? The engine. I don't think anyone would debate that. IIRC, the 7.3 from that same generation with a 4.10 was rated at 21-22k(my OBS 7.3 was rated at 20k with a 4.10). Same truck, same gearing, same everything except engine, but drastically different recommended ratings. That tells me the limiting factor(with all else equal) is the engine.

There are 500 different ways we could compare these trucks and no one is going to think any of them is fair(unless their truck has the advantage). You could do equal gearing, most popular gearing, best gearing, equal weight trucks, weight as they come factory(same trailer weight but less gcw with a gasser), 4 speed vs 5 speed, manual vs auto, etc. My personal way of preference is everything equal but different engines. That way it eliminates all other variables.

 

But everything equal except engines isn't a fair comparison. Ford knows this, which is. Why the V10 needs 4.10s to be rated for 18,000. It makes peak HP over 1000 RPMs above the PSD.

Most here agree that the most direct comparison is 3.73 geared PSD against 4.10 geared V10.

 

This one is kind of long, but stick with me here.

Here is another comparison for you. Trucks have gotten bigger over the years and there are several versions of the 6.4 that weigh close to 8k lbs, so I will use that number. My truck weighs in at 5700 lbs. The 6.4 has 350 hp and mine has 225 hp. Both at 3k rpm. My truck has 4.10 gears and most 6.4's come with 3.73's, so we will use those. Both have a 4th gear ratio of 1.0.

At 3k rpm in 4th gear the 6.4 wheels are turning 804 rpms. Rear wheel torque is 350x5252/3000=2286.

At 3k rpm in 4th gear my wheels are turning 732 rpms(almost the same speed as the 6.4). Rear wheel torque is 225x5252/3000=1614. Based on those numbers alone, it would appear that the 6.4 is better than mine. But, throw in the weight and it changes things a lot.

2286 tq/8000 lbs=.28 lbs of tq per pound of body weight.
1614 tq/5700 lbs=.28 lbs of tq per pound of body weight.

If I meet that 6.4 on a hill with the same trailer, I promise you I will make it to the top just as easily as it does.

Then let's go from a rolling start in 1st gear at 2k rpm(peak tq) on the hill you did your test on. My 1st gear is a 5.08 and the TS is a 3.09. At 2k rpm in 1st my wheels are turning 96 rpms and the 6.4's are turning 173. This even lets the 6.4 start out at almost twice the speed as me.

Rear wheel tq for me is 161 hp x 5252/96=8808.
Rear wheel tq for the 6.4 is 247 hp x 5252/173=7498.

Even before you throw in the weight differential my puny 7.3 is putting WAY more tq to the ground than the 6.4 and is going to get the load moving faster/easier. So combine that tq advantage off the line with the same tq per weight ratio in higher gears and you'll see why my 7.3 has absolutely no trouble reaching the same speeds you all did with the 6.0 and 6.4.

None of use would say my 7.3 is a better engine than your 6.4, but I could use the same argument of "that's how they came stock" and that my truck shouldn't be penalized for weighing less and having better gearing. If I wanted a true engine vs engine comparison I would say that I need to add another 2k lbs to my load to make it fair, same as I said for the v10 needing to add extra weight to even things out too.

 

Then the trucks should have 4.88's and see who can get up to and hold 70mph. That sounds like a fair test doesn't it?

 

I would be all for that test too. If I think 3.73 vs 3.73 is fair, then so is 4.88 vs 4.88. I will warn you though, a diesel with 4.88's won't have any trouble hitting or holding 70 mph. Lots of the old 7.3s in the f super duty trucks came with a 5.14 (I may be off a number or two, but it was in the 5's).

To me, in your test, giving the diesel 3.73's and the v10 4.88's would be about as fair as a shoot out that gives the v10 4.30's and the diesel 3.73's. No matter what the test is, I think fair is having the same gearing and tranny. No matter what the gearing is.