Wow this is a busy thread.

I was just making a bad joke on the exercising my fingers thing, no worries guys.

Timing curve details can't really be set in stone before actual tuning of course. And for the purpose of this thread and prep nor can we make any detailed suggestions until we have cam, compression, carb, etc details. I haven't been following the "dads truck" thread but if it's auto or manual tranny is a very big aspect on the curve.

I will add this though, I will forever it seems argue that using a manifold vacuum signal for the vacuum advance is MUCH better. I'm willing to share my views on that just say the word, bringing it up now cause it does effect curve and shopping choices.

Carbs, it sounds like you have your preferences and know them well. That said I'd make an argument for a Holley based carb for this engine. Specifically a Quick Fuel brand vacuum secondary carb. They come with just about every mod I'd ever want to make to a Holley and based on better made parts. Bill and Jim mentioned my all time favorite carbs, Weber IDAs or DCOEs. But they aren't appropriate for this engine. However look at the fuel metering system on the Quick Fuels, they are almost just as tunable with a completely tunable emulsion tube, 4 corner idling, the vacuum secondary opening completely tunable with a screw, limiting jets for the power valve, etc. etc.



Course, this is an over $500 carb and MUCH more complicated then the others mentioned, but might be worth checking out. Carburetor Features

 

Got the 780 cfm vacuum secondary 4150 quick fuel for a 445 FE. Haven't used it yet, but from looking at it. it's top notch quality.

 

Ken - It is tough to make a long and painful story short and happy. But roughly this time last year I got bids from three different places for the paint and body work and wound up going with a guy working out of a shop next to his house. I delivered the body parts of the truck to him in April and he said it would be done in June. Turns out he has some .... "stability" problems and his "wife" kicked him out and he had no place to work. So in probably October I had to collect all the parts and find someone else, but had already paid the guy most of the cost.

I was more careful this time and went with a guy that was highly recommended by people I know, looked at his work, and checked out his shop. Further, I found that he only gets 10% up front for materials, which are higher grade than the first guy used, and he projects it will only take 3 months to finish. But as he's gotten into it he's pointed out several things that were wrong: You shouldn't paint panels at several points in time as the temp, humidity, etc will change the color and "lay" of the paint so nothing matches; the cab corners aren't on quite the same and require some tweaking; seam sealer doesn't go in until just before the paint; and so on. In other words, much of the original work is having to be redone before this guy will let it out of his shop.

 

Brute - I hope this doesn't come off as harsh, but I think you are going to find I'm very opinionated. (I started to type "on some things" but decided that's less than truthful.). We could have a discussion of ported vs manifold vacuum, but I'm going with ported. I've had way too many problems with unstable idle on vehicles with manifold vacuum to the dizzy and, having studied the situation, realize the feedback loop that such a setup creates. It is worse for an auto tranny but is still an issue with anything with variable load like A/C or P/S. So it will be ported.

Carbs: I've had Holleys and hated them. They leak fuel at the bowl gaskets and accelerator pumps. The power valves split, as do the accelerator pumps. So they are maintenance-intense and this truck is being built to hand off to my offspring, which can't change oil much less power valves. So the carb will be from a type that requires little maintenance, like a Carterbrock or Rochester, and probably the 1806 Eddy that Tim suggested. Having said that, I did toy with the idea of a Holly/Autolite 4180 to make it more Ford, but quickly discarded the idea for due to the maintenance headache it would bring.

Timing: I think Tim can tell me what curve to dial in as he's the one selecting the cam and has built and dyno'd many engines just like mine. While it would be good to tune the dizzy and carb on the dyno, I don't see that happening. And I have an AFR meter so can tune the carb myself.

Again, I don't mean to be harsh, but I have strong opinions about those things.

 

Garte, Brute, the ported vs manifold vacuum goes on. My experience is that it depends on several different things:

Type of transmission, automatics idle with lower vacuum levels than manuals.
Cam duration and overlap, hotter cams have lower manifold vacuum at low RPM.
Vacuum advance spring strength, higher spring strength will cause the advance to "hunt".

That said, every combination is different, manifold vacuum means you have a fairly substantial amount of advance at idle and tip-in which can improve throttle response. Ported vacuum means in some cases a more stable idle speed ONCE YOU ARE OFF FAST IDLE.

Worst case example, 283 Chevy with huge cam, big carb, fast curve in distributor and a Powerglide. Kid that owned it couldn't understand why it idled at 1500 RPM in neutral and wouldn't keep running in drive. I used to keep a pair of the heaviest springs I could for the Delco distributors. I would stick them in, disconnect the vacuum and set the timing to 10-12° BTDC then see where it would idle in gear, if at all. Let it come up in neutral then set the mechanical advance to start about 100 RPM higher, hook the vacuum to a ported signal. Car was still a pig, but was at least driveable.

I'll get off my soapbox now

 

Bill - I'm sure you know far more about it than I do, as I'm sure Brute does as well. But I've had enough experience with manifold vacuum to make me gun shy. Even my Super Bee, which is a 4-speed, came to me with manifold vacuum to the dizzy and it wouldn't idle properly - probably due to the looooooong duration cam which gives poor and changing vacuum at idle. But a change to ported vacuum helped significantly.

Brute - I hope you don't take offense at what I've said. I'm not against you, but I do have certain (many?) opinions that, at my age, aren't very flexible and you've hit on two of them - carbs and vacuum sources for advance. But I thank you for your input - please keep it coming.

 

GAry, I'll bet you bought the Bee used didn't you. To my knowledge, Chrysler along with Ford and most GM used ported spark almost exclusively. Manifold vacuum wasn't used on any of them I ever saw.

 

That Bee I bought used, although the first Bee was new, neither of which were supposed to use manifold vacuum. And I don't remember any original use of manifold vacuum after the concept came out. IIRC my 58 348 was manifold as the good ole Will Carter didn't have ported vacuum, but that was a year or two ago - or, may 50? So, when did ported vacuum appear?

 

Ford used ported vacuum (and venturii) vacuum for as long as I can remember my 58 F-100 had a Holley Load-a-matic distributor on the 223 engine, when I switched to the 312, it had ported spark. Chevy was the big user of manifold spark, in fact on a lot of their engines if it wasn't, they would either bog or backfire when you stood on it.

In 1968, when the first engine (other than the Peoples Republik of Kalifornia) emission standards were rolled out, in order to get a lean enough idle, the timing had to be retarded, no more direct vacuum, and no more 12.5° initial timing on Chryslers. Some engines went to ATDC to burn the lean mixtures required. That was when pretty well everybody went to ported spark. An interesting thing, the carbureted 460s had an elaborate direct vacuum with delay valves etc. on the last few years 85-87 for certain. The other quirk, many engines 351M and 400s among them, used the EGR signal for spark, talk about late advance tip-in, they needed around 2200 RPM no load to even see vacuum advance (no wonder they were pigs).

Basically, most spark lines that connect to the throttle body area are ported, but not all, some are internally run to below the throttle plates.

 

My 460 truck uses restricted manifold vacuum, through the temperature actuated valve on the thermostat housing.
It does have a LOT of advance with the throttle closed.

 

Did it come from the factory that way?

 

Yes, that's what I meant.
I don't want to get Gary's thread farther off course.
I've posted my vacuum diagram many times before.

 

Bill - That helps me understand, and seems to agree with my remembrance on the 348's vacuum advance - probably manifold.

Ok, got Dad's engine almost apart today, getting ready to take it to the machine shop. Still have to cut the ridges out and get the pistons and crank out, but that should be done easily tomorrow. Lots easier than on the $40 400 since it had a piston frozen in the cylinder. This one spins pretty easily with the crank bolt.

Anyway, I'm bagging and tagging everything, which slows things down quite a bit. And, most of the parts came off easily - too easily on the pan as most of the bolts were finger-tight. When I pulled the water pump off I was amazed at how clean it was - especially compared to the $40 one I pulled off recently. Then I pulled the thermostat housing:



That stuff is soft, gooey, and sticky. Not sure what it is, and it makes me wonder whether that's an endorsement for lifetime waterless coolant or for cheap stuff that is changed frequently. Thoughts?

 

You're playing with us.

I see a good testimonial for using Loctite PST on those thermostat housing bolts.

 

Who? ME?

Yep, agree about the PST. Most bolts will go in with Loctite of some sort, except for the ARP ones, which will have their fancy lube.