Originally Posted by Y2KW57

I've been inside every part of that plant during the NUMMI era. It is now a Tesla plant, and was Tesla's first major manufacturing facility.

Prior to the joint venture with Toyota called NUMMI, the Fremont plant was solely a GM plant, producing 70's era Suburbans, among other vehicles, which reveals the following irony:

A UAW worker, who often arrived at work with a hangover, would climb in the back of a Suburban body while it was on the buck going down the manufacturing line, and SLEEP in it until the unit was finished, with all the other UAW workers working around him, covering for him, because no one cared. Their jobs were all protected by the Union, irrespective of their performance. The culture in that plant (prior to NUMMI) was the antithesis of productivity. It was a toxic environment, steeped in substance abuse, riding on an unearned assumption of entitlement, where it didn't matter what anyone did... they couldn't get fired unless they stole something. It didn't matter how well they built anything. The GM products produced there were notorious for how poorly they were put together, and the plant was idled.

When GM's joint venture with Toyota revitalized the plant into NUMMI, Toyota introduced the Toyota Production System. The difference in culture was night and day. The concept of each individual worker having a responsibility for the final product was reinforced by empowering any worker to hit a red button and stop the assembly line when a process was amiss. Team building, job swapping for better understanding of preceding and subsequent manufacturing steps... I won't get into all of the details, but people showed up to WORK, not to sleep.

They actually slept in the parking lot. The jobs at NUMMI were so coveted, people who lived 300 miles away would drive to work in their motorhome, and camp in a designated area of the parking lot during the work week, and then journey home on their weekends.

Some of the most reliable and durable automobiles still on the road today (Tacoma pickups, Corollas, the Pontiac Vibe, now a cult classic) were built there in Fremont California. Interestingly enough, the culture of cooperation and productivity in the Fremont NUMMI plant exceeded that of the other domestic plants of Toyota and GM in the south.

I've been inside quite a few automotive plants. A couple of memorable moments include watching a worker at Kentucky Truck Plant try and install a dashboard in a Super Duty while using his shoulder to pin his cell phone to his ear, arguing with what sounded like his wife or girlfriend. I'd have fired him on the spot, but his job was secure. I watched a worker at a Fleetwood plant strip the outside fastener that holds the wall to the floor, and he literally looked both ways to check if anyone saw him. I was DIRECTLY behind him, and unannounced, so he didn't see me. He then literally shrugged his shoulders, and moved on, leaving that connection undone. I'd have probably fired him too.

And in further irony, that could be exactly why Unions are useful... to keep supervisors from firing people without due process. A chance to retrain. An opportunity to do better. Or continue to do the same.

The culture cultivated at NUMMI was one where ownership of the outcome of the product was vested in the hands of those building the product. Pride of ownership of the outcome. That doesn't mean pride of the car company, nor pride of the Union. It is pride of one's participation in a process to produce a satisfying result.

One has to pay people enough so that they don't have to worry about keeping the lights on at home, while they invest themselves in producing that result.

I remember a long conversation I had with an old man running the security guard shack at GM's Flint Assembly plant. This was after GM declared bankruptcy (which is why GM pulled out of the partnership with Toyota, which is why NUMMI was shut down.) Anyway, back to the backlot of Flint... this man, a great grandfather, with all of his kids, grandkids, and great grand baby living in his home, still had to work, because GM BK'd out of his pension. Gone, as he put it. So there he was, an octogenarian, working security at the plant he spent his career inside of, with nothing to show for it, and a lot of family to still take care of. More irony.

The Ford truck has often been reported to be the best selling pickup in America, and many Americans do have pride in this country, in domestic manufacturing, and in their trucks. We can only hope that as talks resume, all the parties involved can find a way to pull together to bring pride in the process that produces the product.

Originally Posted by 1olddogtwo

And for what it's worth, I knew nobody would name a dollar amount per hour. Let's just all sit on our high horses.

Originally Posted by 1olddogtwo

And for what it's worth, I knew nobody would name a dollar amount per hour. Let's just all sit on our high horses.

Originally Posted by RandyinTN

Because as I mentioned to you before (and you conveniently ignored) hourly wages are directly tied to benefits received. And different locations have different costs of living.
I, for one, do not know how to put a price on benefits.

Originally Posted by 1olddogtwo

Not ignoring. I don't think you're understanding. I'll say it again hourly wages per hour. Not asking about the benefits, pensions or anything else. (not asking about). How much is a fair hourly rate? Since you are referring to geographic, what do you think it is for your area?.

I get cost of living is different. I travel the country on a regular basis. We have five areas in particular were T&M contracts. Rates are different, for example New York and California.

I recently moved from Illinois (Chicago area) where my taxes were approaching $9,000 a year on two and a half acres to Missouri (Kansas City area) on to 30 acres where my taxes are approaching 1500.

So let me ask in a little more detail(everyone), for your area, what you think a fair rate is for an hourly.

Originally Posted by JoshHefnerX

I like that last statement and would like to rephrase that.

What value in a product does the union bring to a customer?

I'm not sure in the history of unions that they've ever benefitted the customer. I may be wrong I'm not a historian, but I did sleep in a Holiday Inn once.

Originally Posted by FishOnOne

Pedro is cheering for you olddog... He's patiently waiting for your union to push the auto industry over the slippery slope they're currently on and to move even more plants/jobs to Mexico where he will be loving his job.

Originally Posted by RandyinTN

Impossible to answer if there are benefits involved. I'll give you one example and that is medical coverage. Suppose a worker has excellent coverage with low deductibles and co pays. Then a different worker has no medical. Same for sick leave and vacation time, or matching or not 401K funds.
Hourly wages are directly tied to benefits, like it or not. Someone without medical could easily pay $1500-1800 a month for their family and still have high copays and deductibles, If another worker had a great medical plan with very little out of pocket payments that could easily translate to $11 an hour, or more, difference in wages.

Originally Posted by birdnst

A uaw worker on tv said that anyone can cross the line and work assembly line due the fact that that does not require any skills.
And they want more money?
Another uaw worker stated on tv that she was only making $60.00 dollars an hour and it is a struggle to survive.
Good gosh how many people would love to make $60.00 dollars an hour during these times?
Pickups are allready $100,000, how much will they be with a 32 hour work week and a 46% pay raise.
I believe it is time for right to work everywhere.

Originally Posted by 1olddogtwo

Keep dancing.