Gas vs PSD
Lead Driver
Joined: May 2011
Posts: 5,775
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Untrue. The engine doesn't push "air" out.
and, if you quoted my entire post, anyone could see that i didnt stop there. the engine DOES push air out (try building a motor that closes the exhaust valve without allowing the piston to have a complete "up" stroke, it will run awful or not at all because there would be too much exhaust left). but thats beside the point. the point was, the air alone that the engine pushes out is far less than what the turbo can push in. so, if you included the rest of my post in your quote, it could be easily seen that i was makin the point that THERE MUST be something besides air driving the turbo. i.e. thermal energy from combustion.
The intake charge contains oxygen, which is used to burn the fuel. The result of that oxidation is MUCH MORE exhaust volume than intake.
The exhaust is very compressed while still in the cylinder. As the exhaust valve opens, that gas continues to expand. (the combustion is still taking place) Creating sound as it pushes out the exhaust port rapidly. Which is why open pipes are so freakin' loud
you just said thermal energy drives the turbo, and didnt even know it
A turbo or supercharger is a positive-feedback loop. Push slightly more O2 into the cylinder, get a LOT more power. More power than is used up to push the turbo (or supercharger).
a turbo doesnt rob much hp from the motor. it harnesses energy that would otherwise be wasted. a supercharger has nothing to do with wasted energy, and gets its energy directly from the crankshaft. the energy to drive the supercharger has already been converted from thermal energy to mechanical energy. it doesnt take much hp for the pistons to push against 40-60 lb's of drive pressure (the combustion helps push it out also). it takes massive amounts of hp to drive a supercharger at high rpm. the fact that turbo's dont take much hp from the motor is just another indicator that it operates off of thermal energy. a turbo is a thermodynamic device, a supercharger is not.
and, if you quoted my entire post, anyone could see that i didnt stop there. the engine DOES push air out (try building a motor that closes the exhaust valve without allowing the piston to have a complete "up" stroke, it will run awful or not at all because there would be too much exhaust left). but thats beside the point. the point was, the air alone that the engine pushes out is far less than what the turbo can push in. so, if you included the rest of my post in your quote, it could be easily seen that i was makin the point that THERE MUST be something besides air driving the turbo. i.e. thermal energy from combustion.
The intake charge contains oxygen, which is used to burn the fuel. The result of that oxidation is MUCH MORE exhaust volume than intake.
The exhaust is very compressed while still in the cylinder. As the exhaust valve opens, that gas continues to expand. (the combustion is still taking place) Creating sound as it pushes out the exhaust port rapidly. Which is why open pipes are so freakin' loud
you just said thermal energy drives the turbo, and didnt even know it
A turbo or supercharger is a positive-feedback loop. Push slightly more O2 into the cylinder, get a LOT more power. More power than is used up to push the turbo (or supercharger).
a turbo doesnt rob much hp from the motor. it harnesses energy that would otherwise be wasted. a supercharger has nothing to do with wasted energy, and gets its energy directly from the crankshaft. the energy to drive the supercharger has already been converted from thermal energy to mechanical energy. it doesnt take much hp for the pistons to push against 40-60 lb's of drive pressure (the combustion helps push it out also). it takes massive amounts of hp to drive a supercharger at high rpm. the fact that turbo's dont take much hp from the motor is just another indicator that it operates off of thermal energy. a turbo is a thermodynamic device, a supercharger is not.
responses red
Lead Driver
Joined: May 2011
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I see carbon dioxide and water, not oxygen gas after the reaction
H2O is not a different form of oxygen. Its a different compound in which elemental oxygen can exist.
Don't confuse the conservation of mass as amounts of each compound staying the same. There is oxygen gas present in the intake, but much much less oxygen gas in the exhaust
That did help me notice I mistakenly said consumed however.
H2O is not a different form of oxygen. Its a different compound in which elemental oxygen can exist.
Don't confuse the conservation of mass as amounts of each compound staying the same. There is oxygen gas present in the intake, but much much less oxygen gas in the exhaust
That did help me notice I mistakenly said consumed however.
FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: Aug 2007
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From: Lakewood, Ca.
FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 18,787
Likes: 30
From: Melbourne, Aus
I want to understand this. How do you have same amount of o2 after combustion? To have combustion/flash you have to have 3 things. Heat/energy, a fuel source and o2. If you remove any one of the 3 you don't have a flash. O2 is burned. Take a candle light it put it under a jar and it will burn out. Why? It burned all of the o2. I do not understand your claim you have same amount if o2 on both sides.
Oxygen gas (O2) is used in the combustion process, but Oxygen atoms are still present as the result, in the form of CO2 and H2O
I see carbon dioxide and water, not oxygen gas after the reaction
H2O is not a different form of oxygen. Its a different compound in which elemental oxygen can exist.
Don't confuse the conservation of mass as amounts of each compound staying the same. There is oxygen gas present in the intake, but much much less oxygen gas in the exhaust
That did help me notice I mistakenly said consumed however.
H2O is not a different form of oxygen. Its a different compound in which elemental oxygen can exist.
Don't confuse the conservation of mass as amounts of each compound staying the same. There is oxygen gas present in the intake, but much much less oxygen gas in the exhaust
That did help me notice I mistakenly said consumed however.
The only difference between what is coming in, and what is going out is the temperature, which generates the greater pressure/volume.
FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 18,787
Likes: 30
From: Melbourne, Aus
Even before turbocharging, diesel engines are more efficient than a gas engine
Lead Driver
Joined: Jan 2006
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Just reading about the 6.4 ,
exhaust at full throttle appears to only be close to the 3x intake CFM.
Thats a lot less than I though, and thats only into the manifolds.
exhaust at full throttle appears to only be close to the 3x intake CFM.
Thats a lot less than I though, and thats only into the manifolds.
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FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: Jul 2002
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From: Long Island USA
The exhaust contains the same about of Oxygen as the intake, its just in different form.
It's a "gas", yes, but certainly not "air".
Originally Posted by IB Adrian
The pressure and/or volume difference is purely due to the temperature change during combustion.
I'm beginning to think you're playing with me
FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 42,561
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From: Long Island USA
You're leaving out all the energy that was locked into the molecular bonds in the hydrocarbon (oil or gasoline) molecules. When those bonds are broken, the liquid turns into a gas.
FTE Leadership Emeritus
Joined: May 2004
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From: Melbourne, Aus
It might change state. It doesn't change in mass.
Cargo Master
Joined: Jan 2005
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Perhaps I was being a little pedantic.
Oxygen gas (O2) is used in the combustion process, but Oxygen atoms are still present as the result, in the form of CO2 and H2O
I probably could have explained it better. The point I was trying to make is that no elements in the process are lost, or gained. (i.e. you put the same mass of fuel/air in - as you get C02 and H20 out).
The only difference between what is coming in, and what is going out is the temperature, which generates the greater pressure/volume.
Oxygen gas (O2) is used in the combustion process, but Oxygen atoms are still present as the result, in the form of CO2 and H2O
I probably could have explained it better. The point I was trying to make is that no elements in the process are lost, or gained. (i.e. you put the same mass of fuel/air in - as you get C02 and H20 out).
The only difference between what is coming in, and what is going out is the temperature, which generates the greater pressure/volume.
Cargo Master
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 2,051
Likes: 1
From: Alberta, Canada
Thanks. Their are some full sized pics in the 6.2 forum if you wish.
Post 344.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...-truck-23.html
and now back to your regular programming.....
Post 344.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...-truck-23.html
and now back to your regular programming.....