Gas vs PSD
Elder User
Joined: May 2010
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From: WV
On a side note: I wonder if Ford's towing charts take into account elevation like that? That would become very important for the V10 owners. I'm sure it can handle 5,000 foot elevation and 15k lb trailer, but what about 10k foot? There is a big difference between a 15% loss in power and 30% loss...
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Modular motor junkie
Joined: May 2009
Posts: 6,190
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From: Texas
I have said before in this thread that I would rather have a 7.3 IDI or 7.3 PSD than a 460 in the OBS trucks, and that at high altitude the PSD is better stock vs stock.
For my use the V10 is cheaper to run. The ease to work on and power are the best part though.
Postmaster
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: Rogersville, TN
I'm not a "v10 guy" and I'm not rabid in my support of it. I just have no problem admitting that another engine can do something better than mine. That doesn't mean I think the v10 is a better engine than the psd. I prefer to tow with my 7.3 over my 5.4 because it requires less downshifting and gets better mpg's than my 5.4. But when it comes to get up and go, it just can't compete with my 5.4.
Look at it like a bicycle. Say you and Lance Armstrong are both on a 15% grade and starting from a stop. Both of you are on 10 speeds. You get to start out in the hill gear(the one below 1st gear) and Lance has to start out in 2nd. He is the more powerful bike rider, but you are going to get the bike moving faster because of the gear reduction. That is like comparing a 5.4 with a 6 speed tranny to a psd with an automatic pulling out from a stop. Then once you get the load moving, Lance has to shift twice as quickly as you. He is still the more powerful rider, but at certain points he is going to be in 4th gear and working harder while you are in 2nd and using the gearing to keep up with him. That is like the psd shifting at 3k and the gasser pulling to 6k rpm.
Elder User
Joined: May 2010
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From: WV
Sarcasm or not, I was just letting you know what you actually said and why Mike would take it the way he did.
I'm not a "v10 guy" and I'm not rabid in my support of it. I just have no problem admitting that another engine can do something better than mine. That doesn't mean I think the v10 is a better engine than the psd. I prefer to tow with my 7.3 over my 5.4 because it requires less downshifting and gets better mpg's than my 5.4. But when it comes to get up and go, it just can't compete with my 5.4.
Look at it like a bicycle. Say you and Lance Armstrong are both on a 15% grade and starting from a stop. Both of you are on 10 speeds. You get to start out in the hill gear(the one below 1st gear) and Lance has to start out in 2nd. He is the more powerful bike rider, but you are going to get the bike moving faster because of the gear reduction. That is like comparing a 5.4 with a 6 speed tranny to a psd with an automatic pulling out from a stop. Then once you get the load moving, Lance has to shift twice as quickly as you. He is still the more powerful rider, but at certain points he is going to be in 4th gear and working harder while you are in 2nd and using the gearing to keep up with him. That is like the psd shifting at 3k and the gasser pulling to 6k rpm.
I'm not a "v10 guy" and I'm not rabid in my support of it. I just have no problem admitting that another engine can do something better than mine. That doesn't mean I think the v10 is a better engine than the psd. I prefer to tow with my 7.3 over my 5.4 because it requires less downshifting and gets better mpg's than my 5.4. But when it comes to get up and go, it just can't compete with my 5.4.
Look at it like a bicycle. Say you and Lance Armstrong are both on a 15% grade and starting from a stop. Both of you are on 10 speeds. You get to start out in the hill gear(the one below 1st gear) and Lance has to start out in 2nd. He is the more powerful bike rider, but you are going to get the bike moving faster because of the gear reduction. That is like comparing a 5.4 with a 6 speed tranny to a psd with an automatic pulling out from a stop. Then once you get the load moving, Lance has to shift twice as quickly as you. He is still the more powerful rider, but at certain points he is going to be in 4th gear and working harder while you are in 2nd and using the gearing to keep up with him. That is like the psd shifting at 3k and the gasser pulling to 6k rpm.
I think those of who are going to understand your gearing argument, already do.
Postmaster
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: Rogersville, TN
About 200 pages back someone used wrenches as an example. You can take the world's strongest man and give him a 6" wrench and have him tighten a bolt as tight as he can. Then my wife can come along behind him with a 3' breaker bar and tighten it about 10 times tighter.
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From: Humble, Texas
While true, there is a fallacy in your argument. First of all, the gearing difference between a hill gear and 2nd gear on bike is probably greater than the difference between rear-end gearing in our trucks. Secondly, Lance Armstrong could probably start out in 3rd gear and still whip me up one side of the hill and down the other. He just simply has so much more strength where it counts. I'm trying to think of an engine example where one of them has so much more strength to get a load moving than the other....give me a minute, I know I'll think of it.
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Thread Starter
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Modular motor junkie
Joined: May 2009
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From: Texas
If both trucks have the same gears, your 6.0 will pull harder from a stop until shifting into second. Then the v10 will keep pulling much harder. When it hits second you hit third, so it keeps pulling harder. Of course, at the elavation you live at thats not the case. Most places it its though.
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Joined: Apr 2008
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From: Rogersville, TN
I am heading out of here for now, but comparing my 5.4 with a 5.72 1st gear and a 4.10 rear end is a pretty steep gap between a a psd with a 2.70 or 3.09 1st(depending on tranny) and a 3.55/3.73 rear end(depending on year). That is a 23.45 final drive vs a 9.59 in some cases. Either way, I can assure you that my 5.4 will jerk the wheels out from under my 7.3 if I start out with my 5.4 in 1st and my 7.3 in 2nd(same ratio as an auto 1st).
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Joined: May 2004
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From: Humble, Texas
I agree Bill but my argument is based on just getting the load moving. I am quite confident that you'd beat me to the top of just about any hill, regardless of load behind the truck. That is one of the reasons you have the best truck suited for you, and mine is suited for me.
I missed the manual transmission you used in your example. My apologies.
I am heading out of here for now, but comparing my 5.4 with a 5.72 1st gear and a 4.10 rear end is a pretty steep gap between a a psd with a 2.70 or 3.09 1st(depending on tranny) and a 3.55/3.73 rear end(depending on year). That is a 23.45 final drive vs a 9.59 in some cases. Either way, I can assure you that my 5.4 will jerk the wheels out from under my 7.3 if I start out with my 5.4 in 1st and my 7.3 in 2nd(same ratio as an auto 1st).
Laughing Gas
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 843
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From: Jessup, PA
While true, there is a fallacy in your argument. First of all, the gearing difference between a hill gear and 2nd gear on bike is probably greater than the difference between rear-end gearing in our trucks. Secondly, Lance Armstrong could probably start out in 3rd gear and still whip me up one side of the hill and down the other. He just simply has so much more strength where it counts. I'm trying to think of an engine example where one of them has so much more strength to get a load moving than the other....give me a minute, I know I'll think of it.
If both trucks have the same gears, your 6.0 will pull harder from a stop until shifting into second. Then the v10 will keep pulling much harder. When it hits second you hit third, so it keeps pulling harder. Of course, at the elavation you live at thats not the case. Most places it its though.
I am heading out of here for now, but comparing my 5.4 with a 5.72 1st gear and a 4.10 rear end is a pretty steep gap between a a psd with a 2.70 or 3.09 1st(depending on tranny) and a 3.55/3.73 rear end(depending on year). That is a 23.45 final drive vs a 9.59 in some cases. Either way, I can assure you that my 5.4 will jerk the wheels out from under my 7.3 if I start out with my 5.4 in 1st and my 7.3 in 2nd(same ratio as an auto 1st).
I agree Bill but my argument is based on just getting the load moving. I am quite confident that you'd beat me to the top of just about any hill, regardless of load behind the truck. That is one of the reasons you have the best truck suited for you, and mine is suited for me.
I missed the manual transmission you used in your example. My apologies.
I missed the manual transmission you used in your example. My apologies.
Postmaster
Joined: Apr 2008
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From: Rogersville, TN
In situations where both have the same tranny and the same(or even close to the same) rear ends, the psd will get the load moving easier 100% of the time when compared to any 5.4/v10. That being said, something like 97% of psd's are automatics and most come with 3.73 rear ends. Mine will fare quite well against any stock psd with that set up when it comes to getting a load moving.
Elder User
Joined: May 2010
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From: WV
No apology needed, but accepted anyways. In situations where both have the same tranny and the same(or even close to the same) rear ends, the psd will get the load moving easier 100% of the time when compared to any 5.4/v10. That being said, something like 97% of psd's are automatics and most come with 3.73 rear ends. Mine will fare quite well against any stock psd with that set up when it comes to getting a load moving.
In situations where both have the same tranny and the same(or even close to the same) rear ends, the psd will get the load moving easier 100% of the time when compared to any 5.4/v10. That being said, something like 97% of psd's are automatics and most come with 3.73 rear ends. Mine will fare quite well against any stock psd with that set up when it comes to getting a load moving.Actually in the '09-'10 at least, the PSD only came with a 3.55 in SRW form. I've heard of people having '09-'10 3.73 PSD F250's, but I think it was a special order or something. DRW you could pretty much get what ever you wanted all the way to 4.88 in the F450, but I assume we are talking about a more common F250/F350 of CC 4x4 short bed SRW, probably the most common configuration of Super Duties.