This is a very crude drawing of what I built with a slightly different layout when I first started.



The problem with 12 volts across adjoing plates is the water temps starts to raise as soon as you put power to it.

So a design change with plates not connected to the power between the positive and negative plate lowered the HHO production, but also kept the temperature rise much lower.

When I actually built it, this is the plate unit with 3 plates not electrically connected to the positive or negative leads between the positive and negative plates.


This is a drawing of what I did my last tests with and got the highest HHO production with.


Blue center is negative, both outside reds are positive, and I can energize one or both reds for a two stage system.

When it is down in the solution with power on the positive and negative plates, the non connected plates have power on them.
In the picture with the single plates the voltage across any two adjacent plates was about 3 volts.
The drawing with two plate pairs that were connected to each other added more surface area and maintained the 3 volt adjacent pair voltage, but a lot of the surface between the adjacent plates was not producing gas.

My next move was going to be go back to single plates by removing the connection between the adjacent plates, but I did not have enough of the nylon washers I was using to do that.
While I was waiting for Ace Hardware to get more in, I got side tracked.

My theory at this time, more plates between the positive and negative plate will reduce the voltage between adjacent plates, increase surface area that is producing a reaction and stabilize the solution temp even more.
So if my theory is correct, that should increase gas production even more with lower temps.

Another note here, when you have the non connected plates you have to increase the solution strength to maintain the same amperage draw, which I am trying to keep down to 20 or 25 amps, again as a temperature limiting move.

On a turbo motor control is very easy using boost pressure.
Using my engine as an example my normal cruise boost is around 10 PSI.
So a Hobbs switch set to turn on a 5 PSI activates a relay to turn stage 1 on at 5 PSI.
When I start pushing it harder, boost goes up to over 20 PSI, so the second Hobbs switch activates relay 2 at 12 PSI turning on stage 2.

If I ever get back to working on it and get production up a bit more, stage 3 and 4 are also possible with a second HHO generator.

Then my next move would be try stage 5 propane on top of that.


Hello Chris....how many more driveshafts do you have out there for my truck?
10 ....OK, I will be right out to pick them up.
That will probably last me a couple weeks, thanks.

110 liters per minute....1.2% HHO....now that would be worth installing.
If you can make that much gas with an acceptable current draw and keep the temp under control you are well on your way.
If that proved to be to much HHO, a weaker solution would drop the amps drawn, and lower production.

Like I said above, on a turbo engine gas control is easy.
Hobbs pressure switches on the boost pressure can activate relays at any given boost pressure.
A Hobbs switch on engine oil pressure as a master arm control, no power to the relays until there is engine oil pressure with a master arm manual switch sending power to the oil pressure Hobbs switch.
A temp limit switch mounted on the HHO generator could also be incorperated into the safety circuit.

The ignition switch is the master switch, ignition on before power goes to anything.
Then master arm switch sends power to the engine oil pressure switch.
Oil pressure present, power goes to the high temp limit switch.
Temp below the max temp set o the limit switch, power goes to the boost Hobbs switches.
Boost exceeds Hobbs 1 pressure, activates relay 1 and power goes to the HHO generator stage 1.
Boost exceeds Hobbs 2 pressure, activates relay 2 and power goes to the HHO generator stage 2.

As boost varies, stage 1 and 2 can come on or go off as needed.

So if any of the safety controls opens the circuit, power to the relays is cut, the system shuts down.

 

Dave:
Good idea with the 2 stages. From everything I've read, the voltage between plates should be kept around 2 V. Anything over that goes to heat. That could be why you experience a build up of heat.

 

Dropping from 12 volts across adjoining plates to 3 volts across adjoining plates made a huge difference in how fast it got hot.
But that also made a good sized difference in how much gas was produced.

In the end, lots of gas with boiling water is worse than less gas and a cool generator, so it is a fair trade.

Two generators with two stages each, four stage system.

From all of my research, HHO below 50% of max RPM for the engine is of little use and may actually drop MPG's some.
I attribute that to the amperage the generator is drawing.
It also seems that the max gain is around 75 or 80 percent of max fuel delivery.

Actually the tests that addressed the fuel consumption best were rated in gallons per hour (GPH) and RPM with throttle position given in percent of full load.

I just don't see an easy way to control HHO on a NA engine.
Same problems with HHO as you have controlling propane.

On a turbo engine, boost is the perfect thing to use because RPM, fuel delivery and engine load all affect boost pressure.

 

You need to get an electronics Guru to build you a PWM power supply that can be controlled by a resistive sensor like the TPS used by the E4OD controller. That way you could have absolute control of the HHO output based on throttle position.

 

I had an HHO Gen system that worked very well. I was at 33mpg on my '95 F150 with 5.8L. The only problem I had with the system, constant adjustments to keep the peek mileage and the other was POH was used to catalyze the water solution. Have you found something less corrosive than POH? Are you using just tap water now?

 

You need a strong electrolyte to conduct the current. The same characteristic that makes a strong electrolyte makes a strong corrosive. What HHO generator are you using? Did you make your own, or did you buy one?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>
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I was using a manufactured one. There are ways to make HHO with out using solutions. I've done it a few times but found a better product with less maintenance. I was just wondering if anyone has moved away from these types of solutions to the 'tap water' system.

 

Just using throttle position to control the flow of HHO or propane is not ideal.

Like you have a manual tranny turning 1000 RPM, mash the pedal down, HHO flow goes to wide open and the RPM is to low for that much HHO.
So now you have probably head gasket damage since the sir flow through the engine was low, the HHO ratio was high.

Engine RPM, AKA air flow affects how much gas you can use with the fuel.
If the gas ratio gets to high, sounds just like an engine starting with to much ether sprayed in the intake.

It takes both RPM and fuel to make boost, so if boost is low, either the RPM is low or the throttle pedal is not down hard enough.
That is why it makes it the ideal way to control gas injection/fumigation.

Getting enough gas production with a unit small enough for a pickup is hard enough using KOH or NaOH.
Tap water only would take to much power to be practical in a vehicle unless I missed something when I was researching HHO.
What is the better product with less maintenance?

 

using a retard circuit in the TPS you can get the results. It really doesn't matter though, you're looking for a good even flow at the appropriate range for driving conditions, not performance from take off... if performance is your goal, don't mess with the HHO, go for NOS. Like I said, had, done it and loved the results. Just to much give for that take

 

Oh, the better product. Not going to do the advertising here. If you message me, I'll tell you. But the company contacted me in April 09 to examine the product, given my background, and after a test of the equipment, I chose it over my HHO gen system. It's simpler and does a nice job of reducing NOX by +50%. Plus it gives me a minor power boost with fuel mileage increase. With no corrosion, can't beat it. But, this is about HHO, so I digress.... Look over Stan mayer's work on H2 systems for more on loosing the solutions in your HHO gen.

 

HTRf150,
What HHO system did you use? I have a 5.8l e-150 and would cry if i could get 33 mpg. Did you use PWM or MAP/EFIE controllers?

 

you should perforate them, just to get a little more surface area

 

did anyone ever think of making one out of a 12v car battery by dumping all the acid out and replacing it with water, and electrolyte, and put some hoses coming off it?

 

Um the acid is water and electrolite, so in essance you would just be capturing the hydrogen created when charging a battery. The problem with this is most of the electricity put in would be stored in the battery rather than used to convert the electrolite solution to HHO.

 

what if you drain the battery and put in just a small amount of acid with the rest as water? i've seen 12v batteries bubble and make hydrogen before, once at my school shop and i've done it before on accident. would just a little less electrolyte make it bubble?