Zero degrees celsius !!!!

I admire your stamina. Well done.

I'm going to refund you the $60 I won last year, and I'm going to add $100 to it, if you promise never to type here -50 degrees celsius again.

Note that the underlined bit was a whisper ! LOL

I got 'fingerless gloves' when I lived in the UK, and that allowed me to work on things outside. Can you get them there in Canada ?

They're woolen gloves with the tips exposed.

I didn't expect you to say that you'd been over tightening the plugs.

On that subject, here's a pic below of the NGK plug I use. Note the washer at the top of the thread.

I never reuse one of these plugs.

When you're finished with the preloads, by all means fit your new plugs then, if you haven't already.

The plugs will more than likely need changing again anyway, to ensure the correct heat range. One size cooler I think.

I like the compression numbers, to a point. They are nice 'n high as expected, they are within a Mickey Mouse 'general' tolerance, but I don't like the wide range (170-190) on a brand new motor.

Please answer these :

1/ Is your valve train adjustable or non adjustable ?
2/ Do you know why your cranking pressures increased from +/- 140 pre-rebuild to +/- 180 post- rebuild ?
3/ Do you know why the vacuum just increased from 12'' to 15'' ? (The answer to this will be the answer to when you see 19''-20'' )
4/ Did you pull both valve covers or just the passenger side ?
5/ Are you using an actual AFR gauge in addition to reading and following the Eddy instructions ?
6/ Did the engine run smoother after the passenger (and driver ?) side(s) preload adjustments ?
7/ Is the idle a tad rough as opposed to very rough now ?
8/ Do you know why the spark plug heat range has (probably) changed ?
9/ Have you got an idea why that video is sh$t ?
10/ Did you read Tom Monroe's pages 117 - 118 and do you understand what I'm getting at ?

It looks like you're at school with all the questions, LOL, but I'm asking them to see if you fully understand a few things, and I know you like learning.

And if you don't know some answers, no worries, you will soon.

Food for thought :

The igition timing at idle is 13* + 20* = 33*. (I assume it's still those numbers ! )

The carb has been repeatedly tuned.

The steady vacuum needle told you there were no vacuum leaks, and you double checked.

The vacuum has stayed constant at 15'' throughout except for one adjustment.

Don't fixate on the tick sound at this stage.

The battle is actually closer to being over than you think. (F$$k, I hope I'm not wrong. LOL )

I have a confession to make.

I'm so used to working with an adjustable preload that my comments early last week were actually crap (lucky for me it wasn't obvious).

 

I'll answer your questions, but you may as well skip to the bottom, below me quoting your text.... because I am an idiot lol.

I'll skip to the chase - I've been hooking the vacuum gauge to a T @ the dizzy vacuum pot, but hooking everything back up when testing for a vacuum reading. So essentially I am tapping into the vacuum signal between the carb and the dizzy. Should be fine right? WOW I WAS WRONG because that reading is NOT accurate. I said I was pulling 15 inches of vacuum - I'm pulling between 10 and 12 (keep reading).

I pulled the vacuum line from the dizzy completely, plugged everything off, then tested with the vacuum gauge connected directly to the carb.... So I was running off JUST mechanical advance (no vacuum advance) at idle. Vacuum readings flucuate between 10 and 12 inches of mercury.... The needle bounces between the two readings very consistently while at idle. And it's consistently bouncing with the "tick" sound I've been hearing.

Basically what I'm saying is that I need to start completely over with my testing of vacuum readings, my carb, my adjustments to the valvetrain, and everything else that needs to be looked at..... Particularly the gaskets on the top-end.

There is clearly something wrong with many things if I'm pulling vacuum readings that bounce between 10 inches and 12 inches of mercury and the needle is bouncing between those two numbers at roughly the same time the "tick" is happening. I've got a massive leak somewhere and something is certainly wrong.

I have two hunches on why I am getting such low vacuum readings:
1) I blew a head gasket from all that time I spent with the initial advance set at 8 degrees retarded.... (first mistake).
2) I did not use enough RTV between the intake and exhaust runners when laying down the intake which is causing the vacuum signal to leak between two runners at the intake/head surface (at the turkey pan).

I am leaning towards #2 for 4 reasons:
A) The coolant is still a nice BRIGHT yellow (Zerex G-05 + distilled water). There are ZERO signs of oil/foam/milky crap in my coolant.
B) The oil is clean - no milky sludge or brown mess every time I pull the dipstick - it's a nice bright/clean/clear colour that you would expect of new oil.
C) The compression test did NOT LEAK down AT ALL. I held the gauge in my hand and watched it for at least 30 seconds to see what the needle was doing when I did the cold compression test a week ago.
D) If you look back at the photos of my intake being installed (January/Feb/March of this year), you can see that I was NOT liberal with the RTV.

Anywho... now that you know I'm an idiot lol... I'll answer your questions.

So my plan of attack is to start fresh....

I need to be rid of this mis-information I've gotten myself into....

Things I'm thinking of:
1) check timing
2) check spark plug gap
3) start over with the carb and re-tune it from the beginning by starting with out-of-the-box settings
4) check valve train + use Tom Monroe's book for double-checking valves on the base circle with a feeler gauge
5) Get rid of my vacuum leak.......
6) Pull the intake
7) Have a look over the lifers, the cam, the pushrods, everything I can see without pulling the heads
8) Put new spark plugs in
9) Buy an AFR gauge to help me tune faster/better/easier (but also learn how to tune a carb without it!!!)
10) Get back to driving / breaking in the motor!

 

If I were in your shoes I would put #6 an #7 at the top of the list.
You cannot tell anything by looking at the oil on the dipstick, unless the engine is completely disintegrating inside. You have to remove the filter and open it up, and not with a Sawzall, to know anything. Any ferrous metal in the filter at this point is reason to be very concerned.
As far as #10 goes if it ain't broke in by now ???

 

After reading half the night... #6 & #7 is where I would start. Valley pans aren't too bad to pop and check. Also as to the part on colder range plug, #24 is one range cooler. I don't think it's an issue though as I have ran #25s with nitrous and had no issues. I should have followed closer over the last year on your build but alas I've been working on mine as well lol.

 

LMAO @ being an idiot. I know exactly what you mean.

In fact I have won several idiot competitions which means I have several 'idiot T shirts'.

I've just posted one of them to you, together with the promised $160.

That'll cover the case of beer for Rich.

I've enjoyed following your build thread, but I have to say that your concentration is too widely spread.

You need 100% concentration on the engine when you get around to it.

If for example, you're thinking about the absent plate, sort out the new plate first.

I see from the build thread photos that the truck is indoors.

Can you work on the engine indoors ?

I had the impression that you were working outside with in a very unfriendly temperature !?

If you can work indoors, with a heater if need be, that will help you to fully concentrate.

Thank you for answering my questions.

With regards to number 2 :

Basically the increase is from moving from 8 point something compression to 9 point something.

The increase is why I mentioned you might need to change to a cooler plug.

When your engine is 100% dialed in, and you've done +/- 100 miles, that will be the time to read the plugs.

The autolite 25's should be fine for now.

Still on question 2, looking at your compression figures again, cylinders 1 - 4 range from 178-190, and cylinders 5 - 8 range from 170-177.

Did you measure zero deck on all cylinders during the rebuild ?

Re question 3 :

My gut feel until now is that the 'preload' adjustments were too much, and thus causing the valves not to fully seat.

I'm hoping that the 32 numbers per post 314 will shed some light. (Not to be done yet.)

Re question 5 :

No worries about not using an AFR gauge.

While I remember, I drove from here, sea level, up to 6,000 feet without adjusting my timing or main jets.

Total loss of power, LOL, but still a decent vacuum.

The next time I went up, I advanced the timing every 2,000 feet.

More power and vacuum, but still way too rich.

My point is that your carb is not the reason for the crap vacuum.

Re question 6 :

You know your truck, so if it sounded smoother, it probably was smoother.

Re question 8 :

No. Increase in compression.

Re question 9 :

It's sh$t, among other reasons, because he starts off by saying that he doesn't know what lifters he was working on when the phone rings or a customer comes in.

Ummm, leave the ratchet on the nut before allowing the distraction !! Problem solved.

Re question 10 :

No.

I'm getting at you quoted 0.060'' gap in one of your answers in post 309.

This is not a gap, it is the rod length increases or decreases available.

The 32 numbers to follow, per post 314, will determine if you need different rod lengths.

You won't !! I have a better solution.

Forget about base-circle of the cam etc when doing the 'preloads'.
Just focus on the firing order and 'are both valves closed ?' as discussed earlier.

Moving on.

With regard to your feedback in post 317.

You blew a head gasket !!!???

I don't remember reading about that.

Did you replace the gasket ? (Nope, I'm making no more assumptions !)

If yes, did you check that the head had not warped ?

There are no exhaust runners, only intake runners.

Hmm, I remember seeing your turkey pan in post 162 on page 11, but I have no idea why I didn't comment at the time.

Did a 3 year old apply the RTV ?

Sorry, I have to be sarcastic. LOL

There is no vacuum leak there. You checked.

You could have gas running into the turkey pan rather, but looking at the RTV, it looks like it was too liberal.

Is that intake manifold aluminium ?

If yes, does it need a turkey pan ? (For comparison, my Edelbrock doesn't need it.)

If it doesn't need it, fel-pro gaskets will suffice.

If it does need the pan, and RTV is required, a neat thin line is all that is required.

I haven't used a turkey pan in 10 years, but I don't recall using RTV with them, except on the back+front sides.

Anyway, forget your hunches for now.

Your mention of the coolant and oil colours is because you are stressing. Relax ! (See very last comment in post 300 on page 20. LOL)

Ok, you said in post 305 on page 21 that you used a vacuum T.

F$$k ! I didn't realise the significance at the time.

I get it now.

What's interesting is that you say the vacuum needle is steady with the vac adv connected.

Also, if I'm reading this correctly, you get 15* with vac adv and 10-12* with no vac adv, which is also useful.

With regard to your to do list, please make this number 1, when you have 100% concentration :

It's quick and costs nothing.

CHANGE NOTHING ON THE ENGINE. LEAVE IT AS IT IS NOW.

Warm up the engine. Does it take maximum 5 minutes to get to operating temp ? (Just curious .)

Once warm, note the ignition timing, vacuum reading and needle behaviour, and the rpms. Post up the results.

Next, disconnect the dizzy vac adv at the carb port, and attach your vac gauge to that carb port.

Note the ignition timing, vacuum reading and needle behaviour, and the rpms. Post up the results.

Then reconnect vac adv etc.

You should have brake booster, pcv valve, and dizzy (and auto tranny if applicable) connected to full manifold. Nothing else. Is this correct ? Post up yes or no.

Hmm, per pictures in post 162 on page 11, what is connected to the vacuum port at the back of the carb spacer, pcv or booster ?

If pcv, where is booster connected ?, or vice versa. Post up.

I'd still love to know how you mistakenly had 8* retarded. Coulda been useful.

Anyway, enough about your engine, guess what I picked up earlier ? LOL

Nope, can't post a pic during an edit.

 

Now you can guess !



In an earlier, different thread, you asked me if I'd used one of these calipers.

Ask me again next week ! LOL

 

I don't refer to the engine being broken in as I've only put on 500-ish kms since cam break-in. I'm considering "fully broken in" by roughly 2,500 kms.

What's the best way to open up a filter the proper way? (Without using some special tool that's another $100 I don't need to spend lol)

Neat! Well thanks for joining us. Better to have more eyes on something than not enough

What you been doing on your build?

Well not necessarily. Remember I was operating the truck for the first 100 kms with 8 degrees BTDC???? I completely skipped over checking the timing before hopping in and driving it (after cam break-in). During that first 100 kms, the truck tried to overheat twice. While driving that first 100 kms, I noticed that the truck ran warm (somewhere between AL in NORMAL on the factory gauge). When I pulled over to see what was happening under the hood, the gauge pinged to beyond NORMAL on the right - so I shut it down immediately and let it cool naturally. After turning my thumb brown for about an hour, I started it back up and drove it home because the gauge had dropped below the N in NORMAL.

Only after the second time of the temp gauge pinging did I realize I forgot to check my timing... HUGE MISTAKE. By that point, I had driven on the new motor for the first 100 kms, breaking it in. I basically drove the **** out of it for the first 100 kms on 8 degree BTDC.... Oooops!!!

So that's why my head gasket may be suspect to being damaged and need replacement.

Correct. I mistakenly wrong exhaust as I was feverishly writing down my thoughts - I should have said that I think I'm leaking a vacuum signal between two INTAKE runners at the head/intake surface due to the amount of RTV I laid down.

Yes, I do have a turkey pan. And I cannot remember for the life of me how old my UltraBlack tube of RTV is. In anticipation of having to pull the intake, I bought a new tube of UltraBlack RTV.

I want to disagree on this one - I sprayed down the intake-head surface with flammable carb cleaner. That would only account for 50% of the intake to head surface being tested (from above). The other half of the mating surface I cannot test because it's technically inside the motor lol. That's why I think the intake runners are suspect. Additionally, the consistency of the 10-12 vacuum reading tells me that it's either 1 cylinder that's having issues, or it's between two cylinders. (I've been reading your PDF you posted wayyy wayyy back on Vacuum signals and what they mean).

Yes - aluminum. It's the old-school Offenhauser 360 dual port. Turkey pans are required regardless aren't they?

I recall seeing an old thread on this part of the forum (335 series) where there was a massive debat back and forth as to when the turkey pan was needed and when it wasn't. I just decided to go with it, cause why not? At least it keeps the underside of my intake clean and free of oil lol.


That is correct. Steady and 15 when the T is connected + dizzy is connected. Unsteady (swings between 10 and 12) when connected directly to the carburetor.


Yes, correct. 4 things in total:
1) Brake booster
2) PCV Valve
3) Auto tranny vacuum line
4) That nifty vacuum tree I found from the 1984 Crown Victoria which is now mounted on the firewall for easier access to full manifold vacuum.... unfortunately tho, I didn't pay much attention to how large the nipples on that tree were and they're too large for my vacuum gauge (brake booster and tranny line eats up the two smallest nipples). In the future, I plan on hard-mounting a vacuum gauge inside my engine bay so I don't have to carry one around with me.

Brake booster, and auto tranny are both connected to the vacuum tree. There is a manifold line that runs from the intake to the vacuum tree to enable full manifold vacuum @ the tree.

The full manifold vacuum line at the back of the carb is capped with a brass plug.
There is no vacuum connection available @ the back of the carb riser as it's phelonic / plastic.

That's an easy one - I should have looked a lot more closely at my timing after break-in of the cam... coulda solved that problem then and there and even adjusted it for during break-in!

Nice! Glad to see you got those calipers. Why are you running those massive spacers??????

 

Oh, and yes I've been all over the map with my truck build. The leaf springs were MUCHO important to me as I had 3 full days this last weekend to complete a leaf spring swap (old to new). The truck's suspension has been bothering me since about july....

But now it's time to get back at the motor. 100% concentration on getting it sorted out.

And yes I have a heated garage to work in, but the caveat is that it's not "all the time" as it's a family members garage... and they like their heated garage for when it's -______ *C outside.

So I get the garage for MAYYYYYYBE a weekend at a time around this time of year.

 

Query,
comp xe256h?
Comp 926-16 springs?
Did you shim them .020 for factory installed height of 1.820?
Stock valves?

 

Haha, the massive spacers are to allow for 16'' duallies.

I'm working in the dark with this project, but my measurements and guesstimates show that it will be a close fit, or a complete failure.

I'm expecting headaches with the wheel studs, but I've literally just realised that the brackets will not work. F££k !!

The picture on the left is what I thought I was getting :

GLO Dana 60 & 70 Disc Conversion Kit

I'll cut the brackets to enable visuals and mock fitting,and if everything fits, I'll get correct brackets.

These brackets would fit your truck, single rim, and be placed on the wheel side of the mounting plate on the axle.

Mine have to fit on the diff side of the mounting plate. (That's what my measurements show.)

Hmmm, it will be a few weeks before I can say if the project was a success or failure.

I have an idea.

Keep the T shirt, Rich gets no beer, your family gets a bribe of $160, and you get to work inside.

Thanks for the 8* details.

That all makes perfect sense now.

You mentioned the oil and coolant colours to check that the head gasket wasn't causing sh$t.

And the 8* was just bad luck. (As opposed to major mental problems or a faulty timing light or whatever.)

You're probably OK coz the engine 'tried' to overheat but didn't actually.

LOL, I know you can't test underneath the intake manifold. I know what you mean.

I'm leaving gasket issues comments to the end of the initial simple checks and tests.

I'm glad you're referring to the vacuum literature and finding it useful.

I fitted my Edelbrock ally intake years ago, but since then, I took it off once, and the underneath was fine. (Oily yes, but that's normal.)

I remember something about exhaust transfer something or other that was protected by the turkey pan.

Anyway, phone the number and ask the professionals :

Offenhauser - The Greatest Name In Racing

$10 says you don't need one. (LOL, here we go again with the bets. )

Ignore debates when you want facts, and rely on the manufacturers rather.

Example : Ported versus full manifold advance ignition timing. LMAO

Turkey pan or valley pan ? LOL

Supper time !!

More to follow.

 

Comp XE256H - yes.
Comp springs = 972-16 according to my "build sheet" from the shop.
Intake valves are Part number 01380.
Exhaust valves are Part number 01367.
No idea what the above two numbers mean, I don't have a reference for them other than those 5 digits I was given (valves).

They should not be stock valves, as I had a 3-angle valve job done on the heads and brand new valves installed, including bronze guides, and new exhaust seats. One of the sets of valves was a stainless valve if I remember correctly.

Shimming... this is something I keep coming back to... the shop DID mention that "I may need to shim the valves" but then quickly said after "but we can talk about that later............" (I've mentioned this before in my posts).

So I'm guessing I just found something else I need to do to get this all working correctly (but have ignored) because it's something I've mentioned in my earlier posts, but have not personally dealt with in terms of adding shims.

 

When you're recording the ignition and vacuum numbers as per the earlier suggestion, please do one more test.

After you've noted the current setting numbers, please do exactly the same again, but advance the timing by 10*, and post up those numbers too.

So of it's still at 13* now, it will become 23*.

When you're done, you can put it back to 13* or whatever it is now.

The current increase of 3'' in vacuum when connected to full manifold looks about right.

FFS ! The page numbers when logged in only go up to 17, and page 11 is not page 11 anymore. There's 22 pages when not logged in.

OK, it's page 9. Post 162 shows a vacuum port on the front of the carb spacer. (I had said back earlier instead of front. )

That should be fine whether phelonic or not !?

Please post up pics of where the dizzy, booster, pcv and tranny connect to vacuum, and include the capped port on the back of the carb (or do you mean intake manifold ?).

 

The valves are not shimmed, the valve springs are.

A certain pressure is required at the installed height, and if the pressure is lower than required, shims can be used to increase it.

This was covered ages ago in post 151 on page 8 if logged in. (Includes picture of the required tool.)

I won a $10 dollar bet with FB on the very subject ! LOL

I bet him you wouldn't check the pressures and you didn't.

This will form part 7a on your to do list.

7a is a new one in which the heads come off. LOL

 

Quick search led me to find your valves are hardened OE upgrades with single lock over multi groove.
The interesting part is where builder said ''May need shims' as proper height is 1.820 and a 1.8 installed is on the ragged edge IF it received new valve seats. To top it off a 3 angle grind will set your valves further into the pockets and increase the height of the retainer in relation to the head decreasing seat pressure. 1.82 nominal installed is a little over 10% drop in spring pressure when shims' aren't used with a 1.8 spring. Add in the fact that the valve sits further in the pocket and the valve could even sit at 1.83 and it'll act like weak spring and possibly give valve bounce which can be an audible tick. At 1.83 installed with 1.8 springs it's just over 16% and the 972s are a 308lb/in springs.

 

Sorry if I wasn't very clear, yes the springs get shims

I read that bet last night. I always use one of these before assembly of the heads