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After a little further investigation, it appears that all of my intake valves have been shimmed by the shop... Not something I noticed before (likely because I wasn't looking for it based on what I was told by the shop about MAYBE having to shim the springs some more).
After close inspection, ALL intake springs are shimmed. Here's Cylinder #4 just for ****s and giggles.
After rotating the motor over twice more... Got the dizzy mark to line up with the yellow paint for #1 spark plug wire... give or take a degree @ the dizzy...
Appers to be 28 degrees at the crank, which is correct given the +/- 1 degree at the dizzy.
So I rotated the crank over some more to see if I could get the #1 intake rocker assembly to sit correctly against the head... Rotated to roughly 0 degrees again... Appears to be more like 1 degree ATDC in the photo.
Removed the rocker arm and push rod for Cylinder #1 - INTAKE. Tightened back down to 20 ft-lbs, and ensured that everything was seated properly.
Another photo.
Yanked out the new Lisle 68100 Feeler gauge to check if I could slide in 0.100" (minimum clearance in Mr. Monroe's book) between the rocker arm and the valve tip on #1 INTAKE.... NOPE.
Tried to slide 0.050 between the valve tip and rocker arm for #1 INTAKE. Barely, barely barely fits in. She's tight!
EDIT: Just to verify... I am using a long flathead screwdriver to pry against the valve retainer to collapse the rocker arm and lifter WITHOUT collapsing the spring. I do the feeler gauge test multiple times to verify that I am NOT collapsing the spring at all.
Will continue to do the checks on each cylinder as per firing order.... Record the rest of the numbers.
After, I will be firing up the motor to complete those same 3 tests (ignition advance, vacuum, vacuum gauge behaviour, and RPM using multimeter @ coil). This will be our NEW base line. Might also do a HOT compression test at this point, including 5 minutes worth of leak-down.
After that... I'll have my base line and will be proceeding to redo all 16 rocker adjustments based on firing order and 20 ft-lbs... Will check with feeler gauge and will post up all the numbers likely tomorrow morning...
Lots of testing to do this evening! 32 numbers coming right up + 3 new tests + Hot compression + 5 minutes of leakdown (compression #'s).
When I was saying measure at 20 ft lbs then at 22 ft lbs, I was thinking about adjustable tappets yet again (thinking 1/8 turn or 1/4 turn).
There's only ever going to be 16 numbers, not 32.
Sorry !!
20 or 22 or 24 ft lbs on a nut will make no difference to the gap.
Use the screwdriver to compress(collapse) the lifter and measure the gap. That's it.
The gaps will then determine if different push rod sizes are needed.
The new test numbers should be exactly the same as they were.
Please send my idiot T shirt back to me.
Too much or too little pre load on adjustable valve trains increases or decreases vacuum.
In your case, too short or too long push rods will effect vacuum.
If all of your gaps were 0.05' say, but should be 0.10', that would imply that the rods are too long, which would be the same as too much pre load on an adjustable valve train, which would reduce vacuum.
(I don't know how many 'adjustable' turns that would be equivalent to.)
Hmmm, if you torqued down all of the nuts, and yet 3 came loose, that implies a problem with the nuts ?
I haven't worked on non adjustables for years, and as we've seen, my memory is crap, but can someone confirm if some sort of 'lock nuts' are used that lose their torque ability after a while.
Shims on intake yet not exhaust? Still need to know nominal height vs assembled. Factor preload into lifters on non adjustable setup for nominal 1/4 turn (.030-.040 preload). Im still very concerned about spring run in and it being lower than factory height overall
I just looked at some pictures in earlier posts, and LOL, I can see the bolts now.
Not sure if the 3 came loose or just weren't initially torqued. We can leave that one for Aaron.
@ LiquidCowboy
I also had a 'WTF' moment when I read the intake shims comment.
Many thanks for the equivalent numbers. Very useful.
@ Aaron
If the gaps are indeed 0.05', and should be 0.15' (mid point 0.10' - 0.20' specs), that means too much preload by 1/2 to 3/4 turns.
(This is not bad news, it is great news, as that will be the answer to low vacuum and crap idle.)
That is a Duraspark distributor. You have to set the initial timing with the armature to stator alignment NOT the rotor to cap alignment. The rotor is positioned late because when the vacuum advance actuates it will move to the other side of the number 1 terminal. One half of a tooth off equals 7 3/4 degrees of timing. That's why your timing was screwed up to begin with. Buy a shop manual it's all in there and easy to follow.
Yanked the valve covers after my last post... never got to post the results as it was a late night for me (got a call from the buddies for beers... can't resist!)
Regarding the 16 vs 32... I may as well do the test twice anyways... At least then we have some more info for EXACTLY what the motor is doing in current state vs. re-adjusted/future state. It's not like it's a giant pain in the **** to pull the driver side valve cover passed the brake booster
Anywho, moving on LOL. After yanking the valve covers, and yes I did use a large flathead screwdriver to pry upwards on the rocker to help collapse the lifter BUT was darn sure NOT to collapse / open the spring / valve...
This is the "current state" of the motor (in firing order):
MAX SIZE FEELER GAUGE FIT - I took my time with these tests... determined largest feeler gauge fit by repeatedly testing with different thicknesses.
Cylinder #1 Intake - 0.043"
Cylinder #1 Exhaust - 0.017"
Cylinder #3 Intake - 0.0015"
Cylinder #3 Exhaust - 0.008"
Cylinder #7 Intake - N/A (0.0015" would not fit... )
Cylinder #7 Exhaust - 0.002"
Cylinder #2 Intake - 0.0025"
Cylinder #2 Exhaust - 0.006"
Cylinder #6 Intake - 0.0015"
Cylinder #6 Exhaust - 0.002"
Cylinder #5 Intake - 0.0025"
Cylinder #5 Exhaust - 0.006"
Cylinder #4 Intake - N/A (0.0015" would not fit... )
Cylinder #4 Exhaust - 0.004"
Cylinder #8 Intake - N/A (0.0015" would not fit... )
Cylinder #8 Exhaust - 0.003"
So there you have it. Nothing is within spec. HOWEVER, I did not adjust for torque @ the rocker bolt... therefore I need to yank the valve covers and do this test over again once everything has been adjusted for the correct torque spec.
Keep in mind that I put Intake #4, Intake #2, and Intake #1 pushrods back into their place and tightened the rocker to 20ftlbs.... Notice the readings I got from the feeler gauges above???
Could I have just adjusted it right then and there? Yes.
Did I want to? No.
Why? Because I want a base line of what's happening with the valve train so I know the BEFORE / AFTER results so I can stop pulling these damn valve covers LOL. If I make adjustments, and everything is within spec, then I will be pulling the valve covers less often.
Also... I wanted a base line for the test results below to see the before/after affects. This is to help ME learn.
Motor was WARM for the following 3 tests - Factory gauge hit the beginning of the 'N' in \_NORMAL_/ after 3.5 minutes. Test #1 - Vacuum gauge connected via T @ the carburetor. Dizzy vacuum connected to other half of the T.
Timing: 41 degrees
Vacuum Reading: 15.8 - 16.4 inches of mercury
Vacuum behaviour: slow gentle movement between 15.8 and 16.4. Would read something like 15.8 (wait 0.25 seconds), then 15.9 (wait 0.25 seconds), 16.0 (wait 2.0 seconds), 16.2 (wait 1 second), 16.4 (wait 0.5 seconds), then DROP to 15.8 and REPEAT.
Rpm: 700-740
Test #2 - Vacuum gauge connected directly @ carburetor. Dizzy vacuum advance disconnected and plugged.
Timing: 16 degrees (roughly 15.5... chalk it up my last reading of 15.0 degrees to parallax ...)
Vacuum Reading: 11.0 - 11.9 inches of mercury
Vacuum behaviour: Rapid movement, shaky, attempting to get from 11.0 to 12.0 - Would read something like 11.0 (wait 0.1 seconds), 11.3 (wait 0.1 seconds), 11.2 (wait 0.1 seconds), 11.5 (wait 0.1 seconds), 11.7 (wait 0.1 seconds), 11.9 (wait 0.1 seconds), 11.0 (wait 0.1 seconds), REPEAT.
Rpm: 480-540
Test #3 - Same test as #2, but advanced the timing from 15.5 to 26 degrees.
Timing: 26 degrees
Vacuum Reading: 14.4-14.6
Vacuum behaviour: Very gentle, slow movement between 14.4 to 14.6 - Would read something like 14.4 (wait 1 second), 14.5 (wait 1 second), 14.6 (wait 1 second), 14.5 (wait 1 second), 14.4 (wait 1 second), REPEAT.
Rpm: 640-680
Did not achieve a HOT compression test + 5 minutes of wait time to allow cylinder leak-down.
Stay tuned for the repeat tests after I adjust the rockers to correct torque spec (18-24 ft-lbs I believe?) and repeat the feeler gauge tests.
Thanks for everyone's suggestions and patience. This kinda testing takes a lot longer than I would have expected!
EDIT: Can't forget that I'll be doing an oil change very shortly after I adjust the rockers.... Will post up lots of pics of what I find in the pleats of the oil filter.
2lbs tq won't make much difference, 5/16-18 is 18 turns per inch which equals .05555" per turn. 1/4 turn is .1375" which would be more than 2lbs easily.
I woke up this morning to loud knocking at my front door.
It was the Chief of Idiot Police.
He told me that if I ever write crap again, I'll be lined up outside and shot at dawn.
Hmmm, ok then.
In my defense, and having thought about it, where you said that you adjusted the bolt torques and got even worse idle in post 301, I immediately picture 'adjustable'.
I just saw more crap I wrote in post 307. OMG it gets worse. LOL
Umm, yup, I'm still wearing the T shirt. LOL
Ok, enough of the bollocks, I have 2 questions I can't answer.
Are you 100% sure that the lifters were all fully collapsed when measuring the gaps ?
(Having the intake off would allow a visual check, but of course, right now life is not that easy.)
How did those 3 bolts (not nuts ) come loose ?
And out of curiosity, did you notice the rocker positions at TDC on each cylinder when checking the gaps ?
LOL @ the brake booster comment.
The increase in engine vacuum is the cause of the extra 4 degrees timing.
15* or 16* at idle hasn't changed, as expected, but the increase to 25 or 26* vac adv timing at idle does seem to be too high.
Could be the dizzy springs are too light and have started advancing the mechanical timing.
Can be ignored for now !
The vacuum readings and needle behaviour are going to remain crap, so no need to check them again until the preloads are sorted.
I'm sending you another T shirt !!! LMAO
Why ?
Coz in your last sentence, and third from last sentence, you said you are going to adjust the rockers.
They are ''non adjustable'' , as in, tightening or loosening the nut and bolt does not have the same effect as it has on adjustables.
(Which is what I've been getting wrong for the past 100 posts ! LOL)
Which brings us to, how do we correct the preloads ?
Look at your book, and this is where the 0.06'' comes into play !! There's your clue to the question in post 369.
(And when you change the oil, I'm not going to say a word about EZ/Fumoto valves. LOL)
On that type of fulcrum once it seats down on the head any additional torque is only going the hold it tighter, won't make a difference in lash clearance, it's hard to crush or distort steel with a 5/16 bolt.
You guys need to stop thinking about the stud and nut setup on windsor's and older 429 style engines, this setup is similar to the rocker stands on a FE, once it's bolted down any adjustments are made with shims or different length push rods.
I do like that Crane adjustable rocker setup, my brother has it on his hyd rollered 351C. Stock compression, mild hyd roller, stock 71 4v heads, 750 Holley = 375 hp, 400 lb torque.
Destroked 450 is correct. The Crane adjustables are good in an engine that doesn't go above 6000 rpm. I have them on the Cleveland in my truck. There are a couple of things about them that I've found, one is the plastic guides are only good for 15 to 20 thousand miles before they need to be replaced and it is best to use poly-locks and not the steel type lock nuts mainly because the steel nuts can screw the stud out when you try to loosen them.
And I don't see how you can get a lifter to bleed down with a screwdriver it's hard enough to do with the Ford tool.
You can get a pedestal shim kit from Summit. The Ford Performance PN is M6529-A302. It has 16 .020 shims and 16 .040 shims which should be enough to correct for any decking or head milling that was done.
Destroked 450 is correct. The Crane adjustables are good in an engine that doesn't go above 6000 rpm. I have them on the Cleveland in my truck. There are a couple of things about them that I've found, one is the plastic guides are only good for 15 to 20 thousand miles before they need to be replaced and it is best to use poly-locks and not the steel type lock nuts mainly because the steel nuts can screw the stud out when you try to loosen them.
And I don't see how you can get a lifter to bleed down with a screwdriver it's hard enough to do with the Ford tool.
You can get a pedestal shim kit from Summit. The Ford Performance PN is M6529-A302. It has 16 .020 shims and 16 .040 shims which should be enough to correct for any decking or head milling that was done.
Ooo I like that shim kit idea. Wayyyyy cheaper to shim the pedestals than to fiddle with custom length pushrods.
The downside of using the shim kit though is that you're changing the overall geometry at which the pushrod enters the rocker and the rocker touches the valve tip. It's not a lot of difference, but the physical location will certainly be different. The other downside I see is that if I ever pull a rocker + fulcrum off, gotta be careful to remember there are shims under them.
If there's a better way to get the lifters to bleed down, please do tell.
It wasn't easy to get the flathead screw driver to lift the rocker arm upwards.... I did find though that a neighboring intake/exhaust valve rocker helps as a point to pry from, but didn't do that consistently.
I didn't know about the shims. That's without a doubt the way to go.
A 'professional' did my Crane conversion, and a year or so later when I went to remove the heads I had to remove most rockers to get access to the head bolts.
Today I read the Crane instructions coz I was curious. LOL, they state that new different bolts are recommended, and implied that the plastic guides wear out, as Crop Duster stated.
I set my adjustable preloads 70,000 kms ago and haven't touched them since, and chances are it will be years before you ever have to remove a fulcrum.
Good point about the geometry, but it might be ok. For $9.99 a set, go ahead and get 2 sets.
Your current gaps are basically zero, so fit shims to get a gap of 0.12'' (or 0.09'' if there's issues at 0.12'').
Page 118 states how to collapse the lifters. (Yeah, I finally got around to reading those pages too.)
Measure cylinder one gaps only just to check.
Fire her up and observe the vacuum increase and smooth idle, and listen out for the tick.
Great opportunity to learn the difference between right and wrong preloads.
Then go ahead and take everything out and set up the springs.
