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  #421  
Old 11-09-2018, 01:57 AM
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Too much information !
You only had to test cylinder one.

Mind you, having recorded all 8 cylinders shows that both methods for checking the preload cannot be trusted !!

For example, cylinder 3 exhaust had no change at all with the feeler gauge method.

All cylinders required less turns because the shims have taken up some of the stud threads. ( I assume ! )

No patterns at all in the numbers.

No change in vacuum.

Ok, I was really hoping initially that you wouldn't have to remove the heads etc, but that's the only way now.

Drain the block coolant. (Using EZ/Fumoto valves if you have them. LOL)
Remove the heads and check every single spring pressure at the installed height etc
Shim where required.

Test that the valves are 100% seated. (Might as well.)
Filling the chambers with petrol and checking after a few hours for leaks will suffice.

When the heads are 100% perfect, then set preloads visually with a dial gauge on the plungers.
(With or without new lifters.)

Existing lifters must be used one at a time, and fully collapsed, and put back in their EXACT lifter bore.

New lifters will be collapsed already, and will require another break in run.

Observe where the valve tips meet the rockers.

No comment about the FB900's.

OR, If you're curious, with only the intake off, and using your new adjustable pushrod and a dial gauge on a lifter, try setting the preload that way, and do the springs later.



 
  #422  
Old 11-09-2018, 05:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Aaron-71 View Post
So I did some fiddling with the rocker shims and I have some info to post... but before I do...



A question on what you posted Mark. What if the valve tips are not all in the same spot? What if they weren't ground to the correct length or were not installed properly?

This is one of the reasons I kinda want to yank the heads off... just to see what's what and get accurate measurements before I continue fiddling with things. I do see your point about using an adjustable pushrod and it's a test I do intend to do.

I'm merely debating how many times I want to lift a 100 lb head off an engine LOL.
If one was lower than the one you checked then you would have less preload. The other way, if you had one was higher then you would have too much preload. It just messes everything up for the builder.
 
  #423  
Old 11-09-2018, 05:31 PM
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Originally Posted by mark a. View Post
If one was lower than the one you checked then you would have less preload. The other way, if you had one was higher then you would have too much preload. It just messes everything up for the builder.
Interesting stuff. Well, here's to hoping that they're all 100% the same.

What's the proper length measurement for for the intake valves and the exhaust valves? Anyone know?
 
  #424  
Old 11-11-2018, 12:45 AM
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Yanked the intake today.

Found out that I definitely don't have enough RTV under the turkey pan... each of the intake runners was greasy/oily on its lower half. No wonder why my spark plugs are all so oily on their threads.

I'm planning on getting rid of the turkey pan all together... its creating a lip (restriction) between the intake and the head mating surface.



Notice the lowest part of the RTV on the turkey pan? It wasn't sealing up the intake mating surface at all.


Another photo.


Might be hard to see, but the bottom of the RTV is actually quite greasy/oily around all of the intake runners.


So here's the real evidence that something is wrong... notice how oily the bottom of the intake runner is?? The top half is bone dry. Cylinder #7 shown below.


I think I'm going to get rid of the turkey pan and just use RTV and the rubber gaskets on the China Walls.... Doesn't look like the turkey pan does much... Cylinder #8 shown.


Cylinder #5... Take special note of how oily the intake runner is, but also near the top half of it as well. This intake runner REALLY wasn't sealing properly.


So now to pull the lifters and check them for 4 things:
1) identifying marks (if they have any)
2) total length
3) squareness / flatness @ the cam side
4) total plunger travel without oil in them

I also borrowed a buddy's bore scope camera, so I can get some photos of the cam lobes.

More to come tomorrow.
 
  #425  
Old 11-11-2018, 12:48 PM
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Silicone doesn't work around gas. The only thing out there you can use around gas is Honda Bond #4.
 
  #426  
Old 11-11-2018, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by mark a. View Post
Silicone doesn't work around gas. The only thing out there you can use around gas is Honda Bond #4.
Are you talking about the exhaust crossovers?

i made the mistake of thinking they were water ports the first time around and used water pump permatex silicone sealant.
 
  #427  
Old 11-11-2018, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by mark a. View Post
Silicone doesn't work around gas. The only thing out there you can use around gas is Honda Bond #4.
Permatex Ultra Black resists just about anything. In fact cleaning it off of a part is a PITA no matter what solvent you try on it. As far as silicone on those valley pan gaskets some brands Victor Reinz for one come with a tube of silicone to use on installation.
Aaron you need some FEL-PRO printoseal gaskets with that aluminum manifold.
 
  #428  
Old 11-12-2018, 01:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Crop Duster View Post
Permatex Ultra Black resists just about anything. In fact cleaning it off of a part is a PITA no matter what solvent you try on it. As far as silicone on those valley pan gaskets some brands Victor Reinz for one come with a tube of silicone to use on installation.
Aaron you need some FEL-PRO printoseal gaskets with that aluminum manifold.
Youre right about the permatex... took an hour to scrap it off my intake and the heads!!

Another great suggestion Duster - I do need those felpro gaskets (FEL 1240). Never knew they existed until you mentioned them. I'm ordering two sets just in case I need another in the future.

anyone combine Hondabond / Permatex + those felpro gaskets for a better seal around the intake runners?

The turkey pan did absolutely nothing for sealing up my intake runners... 7 of 8 runners had oil in the head.... even tho I had Ultra Black on both sides of the turkey pan (intake side and head side).

In other news... Found where my ticking is coming from... after pulling all 16 lifters, around half of them WILL NOT bleed down. Had the motor sitting cold for over 8 hours before working on it today. They had plenty of time to bleed out, and they didnt.

the lifters are definitely NOT comp cam lifters as I confirmed total body height with their tech on the phone to be 2.020" no matter which ones you purchase.

Mine have the following measurements:
body height = 1.985 (approximately; some are 1.989", others are 1.993")
total lifter travel = 0.100"

My previous measurement of 0.060" of travel was wrong as I was able to confirm the 0.100 total travel with a couple of bled down lifters today.

Its no wonder why my valves are opening slightly when I torque down the rockers... it's because many of the lifters are acting as if they're solid instead of hydraulic....

Are lifters repairable? It's very tempting to simply purchase higher quality lifters for a whopping $100... wish the shop would have done that in the first place....

pictures to come later.
 
  #429  
Old 11-12-2018, 12:18 PM
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Just replace those lifters, a nephew built a 351C some years ago and was having what he though was vacuum leaks causing a miss, after a lot of testing we found the lifters where pumping up and not bleeding back down properly, adding shims under the stands would only correct the problem temparily , we finally replaced the lifters with another set fixing to issues he was having.

Check out The Right Stuff sealant, hearing good things about it, several on the Cummins Forum are saying it will seal up a 5.9 Cummins and that's doing something, their known to leak. Didn't know about The Right Stuff when I rebuilt my 5.9 and it was a couple of minor leaks at 20k miles since rebuild.
 
  #430  
Old 11-13-2018, 10:05 AM
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Found my "ticking" problem over the weekend... and a couple other issues lol.

Intake didn't seal to the heads... thus why my spark plugs were so oily... I won't be using a turkey pan anymore...
The bigger issue - the lifters were NOT bleeding down like they're supposed to. Approximately half of the lifters are stuck and acting as solid lifters. No wonder why my intake/exhaust valves were opening slightly when the rockers were being torqued down!

Most of the RTV was blown out at the bottom of the intake runners, sucking oily air in from the crankcase into the head.


Evidence of that right here on cylinders 7 and 8. Bottom half of runner is oily, top half is not.


The 15 of 16 lifters of the lifters looked like this:


One lifter had a nice little gouge out of it... it won't catch anything, but I'm surprised by the quality of the lifter.... Under normal circumstances, this shouldn't happen with a "new" lifter...


Out of ALL the lifters, this was the ONLY one out of all 16 to show any signs of wear against the cam. Notice the scratch marks? Not good!!!!?????


After I cleaned everything up, I am temporarily using RTV all around without the turkey pan. Will need to purchase new gaskets this week and install properly once I get new lifters.


After the intake was seated.


Pulled the Dizzy to check for wear. Looks like it has an odd wear pattern... approximately 45 degrees worth of the gear was resting against the dizzy seat in the block... very strange wear pattern...


EDIT: All of the lifters are SQUARE. None are rounded at the bottom. Even the one with scratches was still square to the cam. None were U shaped or "cupped" on the bottom. That's one good thing I can say about my investigative weekend lol.
 
  #431  
Old 11-13-2018, 10:31 AM
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Those lifters should be slightly convex on the end, not flat or especially not concave. If you put a straight edge on the end and hold it up to the light it should only touch in the center.
 
  #432  
Old 11-13-2018, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Crop Duster View Post
Those lifters should be slightly convex on the end, not flat or especially not concave. If you put a straight edge on the end and hold it up to the light it should only touch in the center.
Let me correct myself on the "flat" part.

I could fit a 0.002 feeler gauge under the outter edge of the lifter when against a very precise straight edge. When held up to a light, light would show up on the outer edges but not in the middle as you're describing.

I technically shouldn't have said FLAT because it does have some shape to it... but for all intensive purposes, it's basically flat.

I'm surprised there's no comment on the worn lifter from you Duster. I take it a wear pattern like the one shown is normal then??
 
  #433  
Old 11-13-2018, 03:14 PM
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Aaron gimmie a call at work sometime. (O'Reilly #5627 on Broadway in Grove City OH) I think You've got your vacuum and ticking all figured out now (ask for Cowboy or Justin) if you want to ping some ideas off me. Here till 10pm EST.

 
  #434  
Old 11-13-2018, 03:29 PM
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Here are the melling numbers... You have the knock offs like the valves. I dunno why I didn't think of that before lol.
 
  #435  
Old 11-13-2018, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by LiquidCowboy View Post
Aaron gimmie a call at work sometime. (O'Reilly #5627 on Broadway in Grove City OH) I think You've got your vacuum and ticking all figured out now (ask for Cowboy or Justin) if you want to ping some ideas off me. Here till 10pm EST.

I'll see if I can't give you a call tomorrow or something.

Did you notice my post above with all the pics? Those lifters are acting like they're solid.
 

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