Agreed, that's a dirt cheap solution to a lingering problem. I may just pull the trigger on them this afternoon. Amazon has them for a whopping $13, but cheaper shipping then summit.

I thought Mr. Monroe's book was quite explicit about the gap being 0.100" to 0.200"???

Just checked - yes it does say that. Gap has a minimum of 0.100" between rocker arm to valve stem. Bottom left of page 118.
https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/vi...pdf-index-of/2

EDIT: Wouldn't I want to seat the rings a bit more and drive it a bit more before I play around with the springs/heads?

I keep getting told (in person) that a motor is basically broken in by 500 kms... but a lot of literature out there says there's another zero on the end of that number...

 

Shimming the rocker stands can get you in trouble if you don't understand what your doing. Those shims do more than just letting the valve close. The only time I would raise the fulcrum with a shim is for adjusting the rocker geometry. When you move the fulcrum up you effectively have moved the rocker tips sweep across the valve tip and that can be a bad thing in some circumstances, you could actually shim it right off the edge of the valve tip or close enough that the first time you really lean on it the keepers go flying. You need to get a adjustable push rod and some light checking springs on the valves and find the right push rod length. Then if you don't like the sweep pattern or the angles you can experiment with the geometry and see if raising the fulcrum with a shim will be advantageous to the geometry but remember, every time you put a shim in you need to go back and find pushrod length again. With rollers, you know it's probably as right as it can be when the center of the rockers trunnion lines up 90* to the valves stem at 50% of the net valve lift. Once you get it right always add the preload figure of the length before ordering new push rods.

 

I was actually quite p$ssed off earlier when I saw that shims were available, and that head bolts needed changing.

Why ?

Coz at the time of my conversion, the 'professional' said he did not work on non adjustable valve trains, instructed me to get the crane kit, and in those days, I had no idea what a valve train was !

For info :

Buying a small amount of goodies from Summit, one gets b$tch slapped with shipping and duty costs.

Buying larger values or quantities, the shipping costs are much, much, better.

But for $13, who gives a sh$t ! LOL

It doesn't take a lot to seat the piston rings, and I wouldn't be surprised if you have already seated them.

500 kms doesn't surprise me. (5,000 kms sounds way too high !!)

Maybe the literature is referring to an engine 'loosening up a bit' if you know what I mean.

When I did my engine I followed guidelines in the Haynes book, or Tom's book. (Here we go again, I can't remember ! LOL)

You can certainly drive around for a while before addressing the valve springs, but I wouldn't exceed 3,000 rpms too often, just to be safe.

Now that you have your preload solution, you can plan for the springs.

What spring specs are required for your cam, and specified by the cam manufacturer ?

Do your springs satisfy the requirement ?

Given that the springs probably required heating up and then cooling, were they weakened with a 30 minute 'too hot' (?) period ?

Have you got the tool to compress springs for valve removal, the tool for testing pressures at heights, shims, etc, etc, etc.

Read the book and thoroughly understand what is required before you 'dive in' to the heads.

Check the oil level regularly for the first 2,000 kms, say, as new motors can burn more oil than usual.

My book seems to be a different version of your book, and is one page number out.

I won't post page numbers again coz I'll be wrong.

You know how to read the book anyway. LOL

 

Good point Mark!

It would be best to order the correct pushrod lengths... seems like a lot of work I shouldn't be doing in the first place though

So many ways to skin a cat..

 

Mark is being thorough.

Welcome to the world of 'professional builders'. LOL. How many times have we had to redo the work !

I hate the non adjustable stuff, and moved to roller rockers.

Have fun with your headache ! LOL

 

Here's a headache tablet (or not ! LOL ) :

https://www.summitracing.com/int/par...09pl/overview/ (read the instructions to get an idea of what's what.)

I know your rockers are new, and I wondered at the time why you were buying OE spec replacement stuff, but I suppose it won't hurt to look at the costs etc of adjustable roller rockers.

Maybe metal guides can be obtained in place of the Crane plastic ones ?

 

I have roller non adjustable pedestal mount rockers... To correct for head cut of .025 and block cut of .007 I use only a .030 shim. Still does not correct the preload issue on yours as the valve springs are still too short for the application (1.8 height) it seems. Also... Hydraulic cams are supposed to have zero lash that's why they're hydraulic. It seems that when you get it apart then back together again I'll put in $50 that says the issue retuns. Assembled height to match spring height plus pedestal shims ONLY to correct for head or block cutting, if shims over .060 are needed at pedestal then you'll want custom push rods as it'll weaken fulcrum bolt. If you want a pedestal roller upgrade the Scorpion 3024 Endurance series will fit under stock valve covers. If I need to explain more I can later. Today though I'm going to celebrate the 2nd interview (possible new job) going well lol.

P.S. Howard's Cams 238101-09 is .557/.571 with 295/305dur adv 109lsa installed at 107icl. Springs are 10%weak if using lunati 73815-16 (1.82 installed) double springs are next spring up with installed at 1.92 (.100 longer valves)

 

 

Bonjour Monsieur A, LOL

With regard to the geometry, the bottom line is that you want the rockers to be contacting the valve tips dead centre.

Dead easy to see with roller rockers as they leave a thin imprint in the oil.

I have no idea how to check on non rollers, but it can't be difficult.

So, thinking out loud :

Keeping it simple, order 1 set of the low $$ shims, and try them out on both valves on cylinder one only. Do they work ?

At the same time, order two low $$ pushrods, remove the shims and fit them in cylinder one. Do they work ?

(https://www.summitracing.com/int/par...25-a/overview/) (Only if your existing rods are 9.51. Check 'em !!)

If the shims work, fit them all.

Or, if the pushrods work, order 14 more, and fit them all.

I don't like the need to change head bolts, and I don't like the 'serviceable' guides, in the Crane kit.

Roller rockers are bigger $$$$'s, and might need head matching to take 7/16'' studs.
That seems like a P.I.T.A. and big $$$'s for no real benefit compared to the lower $$$ option.

Whatever your choice, you're getting some great 'hands on' learning.

@ LC

Best of luck with the interview.

LOL, I'll take you up on that $50 bet.

Just to clarify the bet, the vacuum should go up and both the idle and vacuum needle should be smooth, with preload setting changes only.

(Personally I'd throw the existing springs in the bin and start from scratch with new ones.)

 

The reason Crane uses the plastic inserts is it allows you to use the stock non-hardened pushrods. If you go with steel guide plates you have to use harden pushrods, "expensive".
Beware of Summits description. One place it says they come with polylocks and another place it says steel lock nuts. The last set I got came with the steel nuts not polylocks. But if you choose the right length polylocks they will fit under the stock valve covers. Here is a pic of all that stuff on a 351C you can see the head bolts that need to be changed. If you use the allen head cap screws you need to buy some hardened steel washers to go under them because of the small bearing surface they have under the head.

 

That's a very neat valve train you've got there CD.

Great picture as it will certainly help Aaron to visualise his options.

$10 says he goes roller after seeing it. LOL

I'm a big fan of the polylocks, and good point about the metal guides.

 

Actually, I'm quite against a roller set-up. In my honest opinion, there's really no benefit to a roller tipped rocker because if the stock rocker works, why is it being replaced? (let me reword this....) no benefit to a roller tipped rocker that has the exact same lift ratio as a solid steel stamped rocker with the same lift ratio. If we're talking an increase in lift ratio + roller tip, sure... there's benefit in that. But just going from stamped steel to roller tip, no thanks.

However... If I did increase my lift ratio (again, no expert here...) wouldn't that mean changing the rest of the valvetrain too????? Which means it would have been a discussion to have with the shop when they were rebuilding my motor oh about a year ago?

Function > Form has been a big theme in my build. If I was doing a modern roller cam, I would go with all the other goodies sure. In this case, I want to keep it simple + cheap + functional without unecessary stuff under the hood. My highest preference is simplicity + stock-ish stuff if possible.

So after some French lessons last night...

Basically I'm looking for 5 measurements on my springs once I have the heads off...
Free Height (AKA nominal height)
Installed Height
Squareness
Shim thicknesses (that are already installed)
Pushrod length (meaning, I need a special adjustable pushrod to measure for new pushrods)

I've got an old-school valve spring compressor tool from Snap-on. I've got a 2" bore gauge. I've got micrometers, feeler gauges, calipers, and all sorts of machinists measuring tools at my disposal.

The only thing I'm missing is time it seems... lol

 

The main advantage to roller tipped rockers is less valve guide wear and a slight gain in HP due to less friction over the stock sled fulcrums. Now a full roller rocker set up can free up 15 or so HP in friction reduction.
You don't have to remove the heads to check installed height. All you need is a sharp pointed divider and set one point on the pad or shim and the other under the retainer and measure the spread with your calipers. That is the method depicted in the Ford shop manual. It will be close enough for a street engine. But if you really feel like taking it apart get a Height mic from Summit https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-67390/overview/

 

Agreed. Frictional losses cause HP loss. But on a 1000-5000 rpm street machine that spends most of it's time at 3,000 rpm? One could consider the losses "negligible" on a 350-ish HP motor. I do intend to spend some time at 5,000 from red lights and whatnot. But this will be mostly a weekend warrior / weekend driver for me. Nothing crazy like a mud machine or race truck. I think from that perspective stock rockers are still fine - I know you guys love to see bling bling on old cleveland engines tho so I do appreciate the encouragement to go with roller stuff

Oooooo serious?? I do have a very nice set of calipers to use to get the installed height.... No head removal? That just made my day

Only 1 problem... I still won't be able to get the shim thickness without removing a valve. I probably shouldn't just go with "they're black, so they must be 0.030" "...

Those intake spring shims are an important puzzle piece to my problem.

 

The reason for the shims under the intakes could be a simple answer.
This is a photo you posted in post 92
You can clearly see the exhaust valves are not up in the head like the intakes, most likely because of the new hardened seats.
When the machine shop set the spring height they had to shim the intakes to get them set properly.




I haven't reread this entire thread but could you remind me what cam you installed, are the present springs the ones recommended for that cam.