Jim's ongoing starter issues.
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pedant
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 23,576
Likes: 38
From: EXTREME southwest CT
Jim's ongoing starter issues.
So, here we are. 
A happy place to analyze the minutiae of starter engagement, ring gear depth, gear reduction vs direct drive, and other issues relating to my ability to eat starters like popcorn.
It started innocently enough...
I think the mesh is too deep.
With the bendix style starters the bearings would wear out or the whole snout would snap off.
The later PMGR style starters have just destroyed the gears I think.
No burrs or flat spots on the ring gear.
I don't know how I'd shim something that has a concentric piloting diameter.
I suppose I could grind some of the lip away, and slot the lower screw hole to bring it away from the crank centerline a little bit.
This has been an ongoing issue with this flywheel/tranny combo and I wish I knew what to do about it.
No Bruno,
I've tried different brands (Including Motorcraft) from different stores. Advanced, CarQuest, NAPA, Ebay, Ford Dealer.
The flywheel/ring gear is aftermarket Dorman brand for a 1994, 5 speed application.
It is what was immediately available when I discovered that my ZF clutch would not bolt to the flywheel I had for the T-19 that came in my truck.
Sometimes the starter bushings are worn out to where the armature ***** sideways, sometimes the whole snout is snapped off.
Now, with the PMGR starters, the gear reduction is being broken.
The "bendix gear" looks fine in all cases...
Gary,
I don't think the bearings would wear or the snout would break off if there was too little mesh.
I already have a PM in to Matt.
A happy place to analyze the minutiae of starter engagement, ring gear depth, gear reduction vs direct drive, and other issues relating to my ability to eat starters like popcorn.
It started innocently enough...
With the bendix style starters the bearings would wear out or the whole snout would snap off.
The later PMGR style starters have just destroyed the gears I think.
I don't know how I'd shim something that has a concentric piloting diameter.
I suppose I could grind some of the lip away, and slot the lower screw hole to bring it away from the crank centerline a little bit.
This has been an ongoing issue with this flywheel/tranny combo and I wish I knew what to do about it.
I've tried different brands (Including Motorcraft) from different stores. Advanced, CarQuest, NAPA, Ebay, Ford Dealer.
The flywheel/ring gear is aftermarket Dorman brand for a 1994, 5 speed application.
It is what was immediately available when I discovered that my ZF clutch would not bolt to the flywheel I had for the T-19 that came in my truck.
Are you 100% sure the bendix gear on the starter is a match for the flexplate/ring gear? Something has to be going wrong with the combo if you are frying starters that frequently. Have you noticed exactly what is being torn up on the starter? Is it tearing up the bendix gear itself?
Now, with the PMGR starters, the gear reduction is being broken.
The "bendix gear" looks fine in all cases...
Sounds like it is putting stress in a sideays application to the starter. Can you tell if it is being stressed one way or the other like left to right or up and down. It is starting to sound like it needs to be shimmed in order to get the stress off of the side it is wearing out.
Yes, if the gears continue to look good, both on the flywheel and the starters, then it sounds like too much mesh - pushing the starter gear away from the flywheel. Maybe Archion, who seems to know starters inside and out, would have a suggestion for one with a slightly smaller diameter gear. But, I'm guessing that they don't vary that dimension and hold everything else the same.
How hard would it be to clean an area on the ring gear and paint it and the starter gear with layout dye, install the starter, give it a spin, and then check the starter gear? Then turn the engine by hand and inspect the ring gear's teeth.
I don't remember how that gear is installed on the shaft, but if it would come off I would think it could be machined a bit. If the depth of the starter's teeth are the problem, meaning that they are hitting the bottom of the ring gear's teeth, you could even do the machining in the lathe, but you would have to round them by hand after trimming them. And, if the depth isn't enough you could help that some on a mill with either a spin indexer or rotary table. However, you would surely void the warranty on the starter. Surely there is a better way..
How hard would it be to clean an area on the ring gear and paint it and the starter gear with layout dye, install the starter, give it a spin, and then check the starter gear? Then turn the engine by hand and inspect the ring gear's teeth.
I don't remember how that gear is installed on the shaft, but if it would come off I would think it could be machined a bit. If the depth of the starter's teeth are the problem, meaning that they are hitting the bottom of the ring gear's teeth, you could even do the machining in the lathe, but you would have to round them by hand after trimming them. And, if the depth isn't enough you could help that some on a mill with either a spin indexer or rotary table. However, you would surely void the warranty on the starter. Surely there is a better way..
I don't think the bearings would wear or the snout would break off if there was too little mesh.
I already have a PM in to Matt.
Not sure what I said regarding too little mesh, but I fully agree - it has to be too much mesh. What I was trying to say is that it may be that the ring gear's teeth are hitting the bottom of the starter gear's teeth, vice versa, or both. And, knowing which might let you take a bit of material off to fix the problem.
Again, that's not the best approach since you'd have to do it again if you had to replace the starter. And, it surely voids the warranty. But, it may be the only way to solve the problem.
I hope not. I hope Matt can help.
Again, that's not the best approach since you'd have to do it again if you had to replace the starter. And, it surely voids the warranty. But, it may be the only way to solve the problem.
I hope not. I hope Matt can help.
Jim, can you measure the depth of the front edge of the ring gear teeth from the starter mounting face on the block plate? From what Matt has posted on the starters (Chris ought to make it a sticky) there are two different depths, your pinion should be able to engage fully, but the drive shouldn't hit the ring gear. Could you get a picture of the pinion wear pattern also, that would help decide if maybe you need the larger pinion.
Gary, the pinion diameter has nothing to do with depth, I am just concerned he may not be getting the correct engagement into the ring gear. Remember ever using shims on a Government Motors engine to adjust the gear mesh? They do it by mounting the starter to the block, and use the shims to set the clearance between the gears.
Actually, I've never had to adjust the gear mesh. Guess I've been lucky, but I've not many starter problems and even then the replacement lasted for as long as I had the vehicle.
Anyway, I'll just read the mail and not confuse the situation. But, I do agree we need some kind of sticky on starters. As you know, I'm looking at a ZF5 swap and the starter is a question in that. So, it would be helpful if someone could write up what the various dimensions are, what causes them to be different, etc.
Anyway, I'll just read the mail and not confuse the situation. But, I do agree we need some kind of sticky on starters. As you know, I'm looking at a ZF5 swap and the starter is a question in that. So, it would be helpful if someone could write up what the various dimensions are, what causes them to be different, etc.
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pedant
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 23,576
Likes: 38
From: EXTREME southwest CT
Just a thought, did Ford use the same ring gear tooth count on all there flywheels? I know in early model Jeeps they used different count ring gears with different tooth counts. You have to use the correct starter gear tooth count or it will do just what you seem to be going through. An incorrect starter/ring gear match will work for awhile but will kill the starter.
Interesting question. I have two flywheels here on the bench, and both have 180 teeth. One is from a '90 F350 460/ZF5, and the other came out of Rusty, which is an '81 351M. However, he started life as an auto, so this flywheel was transferred in from something else and, judging by the tag on the tranny (8-10-83) I'd say it was an '83.
Anyway, both flywheels measure 15 9/16" in diameter and have the same tooth-count.
Anyway, both flywheels measure 15 9/16" in diameter and have the same tooth-count.
I know the old small blocks came with 157 and 164 tooth flywheels, the best break point was the number of bolts on the back of the block, 221, 260 and early 289s were 5 bolts and 157 tooth flywheels, late 289s, 302s and 351w & c are 6 bolt and most are 164 tooth, Hi-Po 289s seemed to have used the smaller flywheel.
I have .557-.558" from the face of the dust plate to the face of the ring gear.
The starter gear projects .503" from the face of the starter.
The starter gear has .494" that it can throw outward.
Here's a look at the teeth of the starter:
Sorry for the photo quality.
The camera in my phone is marginal, and the lens cover is dirty.
I'll add that this is a BBB Industries brand starter intended for a manual transmission with a 10 tooth pinion gear.
DB Electrical - FORD STARTER F E TRUCK VAN 7.5L 460 92-97 336-1169 SA-795
NEW STARTER FORD E F SERIES VANS & PICKUPS | eBay
This is one of the brands recommended by Archion.
Yeah, I know it's Chinese...
So, now I have to find a rebuilt BBB starter...
I can't find the Delco 336-1169 except on Amazon.
There's ONE Wilson 91-02-5861 on Ebay.
As you can see there is a raised piloting diameter that fits in the hole of the dust shield.
That's what I was talking about, because if it's over about .050" your going to have some interference running. Actually, just measure from the face of the casting down to the bolt area since you already measured the pinion retracted position. I'm beginning to think that the ring gear is set up like the 87 would have been.
my first .503" measurement is from the lower (but unmachined) face of the starter, not the raised lip.[/quote]
The as cast raised boss varies (obviously) but is about .180" .181-.178-.,,, well you get the idea.
The full height of the pinion gear is .690"
The depth below the machined clamping face, to the back of the gear is -.225"
The height above the machined face to the top of the gear is .465"
So, given that I have .557" from the clamping surface to the face of the ring gear, that's 112thou clear.
And since I have .494" throw, there should be more than 3/8" engagement. (.382")
What are your feelings about this?
Two things, I know it's getting late, but what about end play in the crank or runout on the ring gear? Everything in the pictures points to something crashing or chipping the starter pinion. Tomorrow, if it is light enough when you get home, try turning the engine with a wrench so you can look at all of the ring gear for any obvious signs of damage or wobble and see if you can tell if the crank moves when the clutch is pushed in.
I didn't forget what you said about end play in the crank. I'll try to get my wife to help with the clutch tomorrow.
I did rotate the crank one full revolution and saw no flat spots or missing teeth.
It's not easy to turn over with a 1/2" ratchet, so I'm afraid there's no way I'm going to see concentricity. (runout)
I have a couple of mag base indicators I could use and crawl back under to check the numbers every few degrees.
I'll do that after it warms up tomorrow.
If there is a difference in tooth count for application this is going to cause the wear and damage discussed. Improper gear timing is going to thrust the pinion gear outwards to the opposite side of where it mates to the ring gear.
When you say "breaks the snout off" . Do you mean the actual starter case where it is semi domed?
When you say "breaks the snout off" . Do you mean the actual starter case where it is semi domed?
The snout projects quite a bit more for the flexplate.
The old "see-saw" style starters don't play well with the positioning of the ZF bellhousing, but are fine with the flexplate.
Yes, it snapped the whole dome off of the starter where the outboard bearing supports the bendix shaft.
Yes, it is the ring gear that's of concern Gary.
I would like to see if the plate is flat -and- if the ring gear is concentric with the crankshaft centerline.
This thing came as a unit (ring already mounted on flywheel)
It's a service replacement part, not like you would buy individually at the dealer.
I just can't be in a position to turn the crank AND watch the ring gear through the starter hole.
So, I suppose I need to just indicate it and check every few degrees.
I'm waiting for it to break 30* before I mess with the truck.
I have found that the bushing in the nose of my starter is loose to the point of falling out.
Tempted to just take it apart and try putting it back in with Loctite bearing retainer.
If I'm going to write this starter off I may as well experiment.
Think I'll slot the lower (unthreaded) bolt hole and also relieve the piloting diameter so I can change the depth of mesh.
I don't know if I have any layout paste around, but I could go to the drug store and get some zinc oxide...
{AT THIS POINT CHRIS (the moderator) MADE MENTION OF ALL THE BANDWIDTH WE WERE USING IN THE WHYDTYTT THREAD, AND I DID A BUNCH OF CUT AND PASTE TO START A THREAD ABOUT MY PROBLEM}
Actually, we - and I am one of the chiefest of sinners in this - have hijacked this thread for diagnosing and repairing Jim's starter and/or flywheel issue. It didn't start out that way as Jim just reported what happened and we jumped it like sharks to fresh blood.
Bill (I think) suggested we may need a sticky about these issues. And, while I certainly agree we need a sticky written about flywheel/flexplate pairing with starters, I'm thinking we may need this conversation moved to its own thread so it actually could be followed at a future date.
Bill (I think) suggested we may need a sticky about these issues. And, while I certainly agree we need a sticky written about flywheel/flexplate pairing with starters, I'm thinking we may need this conversation moved to its own thread so it actually could be followed at a future date.
TODAY, I pried and pulled on my crankshaft.
I had my wife step on the clutch.
There's only .0055" endplay.
I disassembled my starter and found the bushing in the front was ovaled.
The plastic gear housing looked fine;
I took a file and made some room to move it over by ovaling the unthreaded hole and thinning one wall of the boss;
Since it works fine out of the truck, and it started skipping before it finally got to the point where it was free spinning and not engaging at all, I am coming to the conclusion that there is not enough depth and the damage is being done because the teeth are camming out and over those of the ring gear.
I will try to see if it helps to move it closer to the centerline.
Methanoholic
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 6,442
Likes: 8
From: Maine (NorCal Native)
I suspect a Dorman ring gear issue ...
I would say a diameter issue and the teeth match is either to shallow or deep. I cannot see the depth well enough in the pictures.
Though it could be a tooth shape issue as well. Regardless, I suspect the ring gear.
-Enjoy
fh : )_~
I would say a diameter issue and the teeth match is either to shallow or deep. I cannot see the depth well enough in the pictures.
Though it could be a tooth shape issue as well. Regardless, I suspect the ring gear.
-Enjoy
fh : )_~
Post Fiend
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 23,620
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From: Coeur d alene, Id
for what its worthi was eating starters like crazy in my 85 last year..finally i got tired of it and pulled the casting umber off the engine block and tranny.. turns out someone did a motor swap at some point and i did not have the 351 w like i thought but actually had a 351 c from a 74 galaxy 500..
so i needed the correct flexplate and starter combo.. i dont know if this helps but maybe just double check to see if you are certain you have the correct starter and flywheel/ flexplate combo.
so i needed the correct flexplate and starter combo.. i dont know if this helps but maybe just double check to see if you are certain you have the correct starter and flywheel/ flexplate combo.
Old School Hot Rodder
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,472
Likes: 11
From: Exmore, VA
Jim, I am inclined to agree with Festus, it sure sounds like a gear mesh issue, either not far enough back into the clutch housing or not far enough into the root of the gear teeth.
I'm not sure you will get much adjustment by slotting the hole as the starter is aligned by the machined pilot. You might have to do the same to the clutch housing and block plate for the upper bolt to allow the starter to rotate since it is asymmetric in it's gear position. FWIW, my truck has several worn areas on the flexplate, and I have never had a problem, the original Ford starter lasted 20 years, and Matt got me this one at that time, so it's been on the truck for 6 years, granted I don't drive mine every day like you.
Do you think you could find a needle bearing that would fit and use it in place of the bushing? That might last longer.
If you are going to sacrifice this starter in the interest of finding the problem, bear with me because I've never had one of these apart, would it be feasible to take the drive and use a dummy shaft to allow a closer measurement of gear stroke and mesh with the nose casting bolted on?
I'm not sure you will get much adjustment by slotting the hole as the starter is aligned by the machined pilot. You might have to do the same to the clutch housing and block plate for the upper bolt to allow the starter to rotate since it is asymmetric in it's gear position. FWIW, my truck has several worn areas on the flexplate, and I have never had a problem, the original Ford starter lasted 20 years, and Matt got me this one at that time, so it's been on the truck for 6 years, granted I don't drive mine every day like you.
Do you think you could find a needle bearing that would fit and use it in place of the bushing? That might last longer.
If you are going to sacrifice this starter in the interest of finding the problem, bear with me because I've never had one of these apart, would it be feasible to take the drive and use a dummy shaft to allow a closer measurement of gear stroke and mesh with the nose casting bolted on?
Thread Starter
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pedant
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 23,576
Likes: 38
From: EXTREME southwest CT
Update,
I installed the starter closer to the crankshaft.
The starter which had been making noise and then was just freewheeling now starts the truck every time.
I don't know how long it will stay in that position since it is not supported from pivoting away, just held there by the clamping force of the lower bolt.
I did use fresh grade 5 bolts and blue Loctite.
It seems the reason the starters were wearing the bushing was because the engagement is too shallow.
The gears are climbing out of mesh.
I'm not sure if this is because of the tooth form on the ring gear, or that it's diameter is too small.
What I do know is that I need a starter that either has a larger diameter pinion gear or one that places the axis closer to the crank centerline.
Maybe Archion has access to manufacturing spec's or data sheets that could point me in the right direction?
I installed the starter closer to the crankshaft.
The starter which had been making noise and then was just freewheeling now starts the truck every time.
I don't know how long it will stay in that position since it is not supported from pivoting away, just held there by the clamping force of the lower bolt.
I did use fresh grade 5 bolts and blue Loctite.
It seems the reason the starters were wearing the bushing was because the engagement is too shallow.
The gears are climbing out of mesh.
I'm not sure if this is because of the tooth form on the ring gear, or that it's diameter is too small.
What I do know is that I need a starter that either has a larger diameter pinion gear or one that places the axis closer to the crank centerline.
Maybe Archion has access to manufacturing spec's or data sheets that could point me in the right direction?
Thread Starter
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pedant
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 23,576
Likes: 38
From: EXTREME southwest CT
I'm not sure you will get much adjustment by slotting the hole as the starter is aligned by the machined pilot. You might have to do the same to the clutch housing and block plate for the upper bolt to allow the starter to rotate since it is asymmetric in it's gear position.
While I had it gutted I set the nosecone up in place to see how things fit.
(no, I did not put the gear and shaft in place)
I decided that in order to be reversible I would only modify the starter.
I not only slotted the lower unthreaded bolt hole, I relieved the machined piloting diameter.
You can see in the above photos how thin the ring is on the open side of the case.
Could I go more?
I don't know, because I would run out of flange for the lower bolt to clamp.
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pedant
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 23,576
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From: EXTREME southwest CT
I tried to edit the opening posts so there was some sense of continuity.
And I edited out my quotes so it seemed more like a dialog than just a string of word balloons.
And I edited out my quotes so it seemed more like a dialog than just a string of word balloons.
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Old School Hot Rodder
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,472
Likes: 11
From: Exmore, VA
Jim, you did a great job of cut and paste. On the lower bolt, if you use a star lock washer it may dig in and help hold it in place. You could get something like Belzona metal to build up the opposite side of the starter nose so it can't move over. Sounds like Festus had the right idea, and the gear failure looked to me like a mesh issue.
Old School Hot Rodder
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,472
Likes: 11
From: Exmore, VA
Jim, one quick question, I just looked back at the ring gear picture and it looks like it may be installed backwards. The side of the teeth facing the starter should be beveled like the starter teeth are. Your teeth look square on the side facing the starter.
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pedant
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 23,576
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From: EXTREME southwest CT
Bill,
The ring gear teeth have a slight chamfer at the tip, but are not skewed like the starter.
I can try and get a picture with a better camera.
The iPhone 3Gs has no flash and is too stopped down to get a good pic in low light.
As I said, the flywheel assembly came with the ring gear mounted.
I think I can just cut a little block of aluminum to fill the empty section of old bolt hole so the starter cannot pivot back over, and out of engagement.
The ring gear teeth have a slight chamfer at the tip, but are not skewed like the starter.
I can try and get a picture with a better camera.
The iPhone 3Gs has no flash and is too stopped down to get a good pic in low light.
As I said, the flywheel assembly came with the ring gear mounted.
I think I can just cut a little block of aluminum to fill the empty section of old bolt hole so the starter cannot pivot back over, and out of engagement.