Jim's ongoing starter issues.
Senior User
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 328
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From: Los Angeles
What are my best starter options?
Are there good suppliers? Should I try to find an original at a yard and have it rebuilt?
It free spinning occasionally confuses me a bit. I've checked power on both sides of solenoid 12.5 on batt side and 12 on starter side. I do want to check it on the other side of the starter wire, I'm sure it's fine but it would be nice if it was a simple problem like that.
Should I start a new thread? I can post pictures of the flexplate at some point.
Are there good suppliers? Should I try to find an original at a yard and have it rebuilt?
It free spinning occasionally confuses me a bit. I've checked power on both sides of solenoid 12.5 on batt side and 12 on starter side. I do want to check it on the other side of the starter wire, I'm sure it's fine but it would be nice if it was a simple problem like that.
Should I start a new thread? I can post pictures of the flexplate at some point.
Senior User
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 328
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From: Los Angeles
It shows obvious signs of wear. The front side of some of the teeth are worn. The corners I guess I could call them. If the starter engages more than a1/4 inch there should be no reason for it to free spin.
FTE Legend
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 32,875
Likes: 48
From: Northeast, OK
Also, make sure you have the right starter. I don't know about the 300, but the 351W has a different starter for auto vs manual. The auto version has a deeper throw.
Senior User
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 328
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From: Los Angeles
I'll double check the starter. It does make sense that the front teeth are keeping it from getting in.
I was trying to put off a flex plate for as long as possible. I think I know deep down its going to have to be done sooner rather than later.
It's four wheel drive. I would rather do it myself but I don't think I want this to be the first time I pull a tranny lol.
Not including the cost if the flexplate do any of you have a ball park idea of what I should pay for labor. I know results vary but I'd like to know what is fair so if it comes back too much higher I'll know I'm getting burnt.
I was trying to put off a flex plate for as long as possible. I think I know deep down its going to have to be done sooner rather than later.
It's four wheel drive. I would rather do it myself but I don't think I want this to be the first time I pull a tranny lol.
Not including the cost if the flexplate do any of you have a ball park idea of what I should pay for labor. I know results vary but I'd like to know what is fair so if it comes back too much higher I'll know I'm getting burnt.
Old School Hot Rodder
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,472
Likes: 11
From: Exmore, VA
The small block (not M) and the 300 use the same starter. I would remove the one on there and rotate the engine by using a 15/16" socket and suitable extension to turn the engine so you can see all of the ring gear teeth. There is a difference between the MT and AT starter, depth of the snout into the housing is the change.
Usually a V8 will wear the gear in 4 locations 90° apart, this where it stops spinning when you turn the key off, 6 cyls due in 3 locations, 4s in 2 locations. If the front edge of the teeth are over 1/3 worn you will probably have issues getting the starter to mesh (sounds like it's grinding, or screaming rather than just whirring).
FWIW, once you determine the ring gear condition I would go with a PMGR starter. One for a 1990 Lincoln Town Car fits the AT applications perfectly.
Since you were posting while I was, first since it's a 4WD then it is probably a C6 trans which is a pretty big one for a small block, second the transfer case is a royal PITA to deal with. I would almost rather pull the engine than the transmission/transfer case.
Usually a V8 will wear the gear in 4 locations 90° apart, this where it stops spinning when you turn the key off, 6 cyls due in 3 locations, 4s in 2 locations. If the front edge of the teeth are over 1/3 worn you will probably have issues getting the starter to mesh (sounds like it's grinding, or screaming rather than just whirring).
FWIW, once you determine the ring gear condition I would go with a PMGR starter. One for a 1990 Lincoln Town Car fits the AT applications perfectly.
Since you were posting while I was, first since it's a 4WD then it is probably a C6 trans which is a pretty big one for a small block, second the transfer case is a royal PITA to deal with. I would almost rather pull the engine than the transmission/transfer case.
Last edited by 85lebaront2; Dec 28, 2013 at 09:45 AM. Reason: Additional lines added.
FTE Legend
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 32,875
Likes: 48
From: Northeast, OK
I disagree a bit about the tranny and t-case removal and replacement. While I have a lift, which makes it easier still, I don't think it would be all that difficult sitting on the ground - if you have a transmission jack available. The t-case doesn't really require a jack as it is not terribly heavy - even with the fluid in it. But the tranny sure does.
One issue you may have even with a jack is getting the tranny out from under the vehicle. However, if all you are doing is to replace the flex plate you won't really have to get it out - just back and down. Tools I think are needed include:
One issue you may have even with a jack is getting the tranny out from under the vehicle. However, if all you are doing is to replace the flex plate you won't really have to get it out - just back and down. Tools I think are needed include:
- Transmission jack - see Harbor Freight for a cheap one, either a purpose-built one or an attachment that bolts onto a floor jack.
- Line wrenches for the cooling lines
- Locating pins - make them from bolts with the heads cut off. IIRC they are 7/16" and something like a 3" bolt works well. It needs to be long enough that you can screw it in several turns and allow the input shaft to disengage while the tranny is still on the pins. But not so long that the tranny hits the firewall before coming off the pins.
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Senior User
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 328
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From: Los Angeles
Awesome info on starter. I will write down now so I remember when the time comes.
I'm on the road all day, hence the delay in responding. Tomorrow morning I'll take detailed pictures of the flex plate. Maybe something will show when more experienced eyes are looking.
Thanks so much to everyone. I lurk and rarely post but the information available never ceases to amaze me
Charlie
I'm on the road all day, hence the delay in responding. Tomorrow morning I'll take detailed pictures of the flex plate. Maybe something will show when more experienced eyes are looking.
Thanks so much to everyone. I lurk and rarely post but the information available never ceases to amaze me
Charlie
Post Fiend
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,521
Likes: 16
From: Lost
A good trans jack, and a rachet tie down strap, the transfer case can come out with the trans. But, having a good trans jack is vital to this process. Cheaper jacks, I wouldn't attempt this....
Having a lift also makes it much easier. Took me about 3 hours to complete the entire task. Took the local rebuild shop another 18 hours to have the starter ready to go back on....... Of course, that starter was rather worn out. 16 years/120K miles can do that, for some odd reason...
Having a lift also makes it much easier. Took me about 3 hours to complete the entire task. Took the local rebuild shop another 18 hours to have the starter ready to go back on....... Of course, that starter was rather worn out. 16 years/120K miles can do that, for some odd reason...
FTE Legend
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 32,875
Likes: 48
From: Northeast, OK
I thought about suggesting the t-case stay on, but from experience that unbalances things since it hangs off on one side. Fortunately the C6 has a flat pan that is stout enough to hold the tranny and probably the t-case. So a ratchet strap would probably allow it all to come off in one go.
Post Fiend
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,521
Likes: 16
From: Lost
I thought about suggesting the t-case stay on, but from experience that unbalances things since it hangs off on one side. Fortunately the C6 has a flat pan that is stout enough to hold the tranny and probably the t-case. So a ratchet strap would probably allow it all to come off in one go.
Tying the trans/TC solidly to the jack, and having a wide base trans jack gives the best results. A narrow track jack *can* allow tipping to the side or rear. Hench, the suggestion to avoid cheaper jacks. Particularly the ones that attach to a standard floor jack.......
Old School Hot Rodder
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 6,472
Likes: 11
From: Exmore, VA
Yes, and the "cut out" corner is on the lighter side.
Tying the trans/TC solidly to the jack, and having a wide base trans jack gives the best results. A narrow track jack *can* allow tipping to the side or rear. Hench, the suggestion to avoid cheaper jacks. Particularly the ones that attach to a standard floor jack.......
Tying the trans/TC solidly to the jack, and having a wide base trans jack gives the best results. A narrow track jack *can* allow tipping to the side or rear. Hench, the suggestion to avoid cheaper jacks. Particularly the ones that attach to a standard floor jack.......
Post Fiend
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 8,521
Likes: 16
From: Lost
Some equipement rental shops do have trans jacks to rent.
I've become spoiled by the jack at the shop. Stands about 3 ft tall fully collapsed, and has about a 3 ft square foot print. Fully extended, it's taller than I am, due to the double extension ram. With the fuel tank adapter, it's a god send when doing a fuel pump. Why do most people send in a vehicle with a bad fuel pump & at least 3/4 tank of fuel? I guess their first thought is they are running low on fuel, regardless of what the guage reads.......
I've become spoiled by the jack at the shop. Stands about 3 ft tall fully collapsed, and has about a 3 ft square foot print. Fully extended, it's taller than I am, due to the double extension ram. With the fuel tank adapter, it's a god send when doing a fuel pump. Why do most people send in a vehicle with a bad fuel pump & at least 3/4 tank of fuel? I guess their first thought is they are running low on fuel, regardless of what the guage reads.......