I read a paper last weekend that claimed that by increasing voltage you could apply a corresponding reduction in amperage. They used a step transformer to get up to 110V and then held the amperage down to a maximum in the range of 4 or 5. They use a calculated current accross the cel at 1.24V, sound familiar? But then after 1.24V the rest of the energy goes to creating heat.
They also point to a voltage drop accross the plates, which was one of the reasons for the voltage step so that they could then control amps to control gas production.

This requires more electronic design but seemed to address problems related to solution temprature control and amperage draw down on a rolling chassis.

 

The auto ignition temp of hydrogen is much higher than diesel, so it should only ignite after the diesel ignites. This might have a slight effect on timing since the flame spread may happen sooner, but the difference should be minimal. Yes these engines have oil squirters.

 

Anything that consumes electricity is using watts.
20 amps at 12 volts is 240 watts.
2 amps at 120 volts is 240 watts.

As for stepping up the voltage, that just adds more loss to the process.
Transformers get hot, the heat produced is electricity lost to producing heat that I have no use for.

I am going to use potassium hydroxide (KOH) in the water to make an electrolyte solution.
What controls the watts used in electrolysis is how strong the electrolyte is.
The less KOH I add to the water, the less watts the reaction will consume.
The more KOH I add, the more watts it will consume.
As the water is split, the concentration will increase slightly.
So if I use an amp gauge in the wire that supplies one of the stages, after a while when I see the amperage increasing I will know I need to add water to the generator.

I have been studying for several weeks now.
My approach logic is there should be more than one fixed level of gas production.
There should be a master kill switch.
There should be a safety that does not let gas production happen when the engine is not running.
Since I am running advanced timing, I will also have a safety that does not let gas production start while the timing advance is on.
And there needs to be a switch that automatically disables gas production when the engine is idling.

So if we start at the dash with a control circuit powered from the ignition switch.
Then go to a master arm switch, turn on to operate.
Next is a normally closed switch that opens when the throttle is in the idle position, but closes as soon as the throttle is opened.
Next stop is a Hobbs pressure switch O in the oil gallery, closes when the oil pressure is over 5 PSI.
Next is a relay T that opens when power is applied to the trigger circuit, that will be tied into the timing advance circuit.
So now when the timing advance turns off, the relay T closes and sends the power on to the next relay 1 trigger terminal.
This trigger circuit also powers two more Hobbs switches, more on that later.
So far to produce gas, we need,
Key on
Master arm on
Throttle open
Oil pressure, Hobbs O
Timing advance off, relay T
Relay 1 will close when all of the above conditions are meet and start Stage 1 gas production.
So we are making gas at a minimum rate on stage 1.
Now Hobbs 2 will turn on and send power to relay 2 trigger terminal when the boost pressure reaches say 4 PSI and turn on stage 2 in the generator.
Hobbs 3 will close and send power to relay 3 trigger terminal when the boost reaches 8 PSI turning on stage 3 in the generator.

The reason for all the relays is wire size reduction and also reduced length in the wires that are carrying many amps.
Trigger circuit should be on a 2 amp fuse since it is only closing relays.
I think a power wire tied into the alternator output terminal is where the power should come from that goes to the relays.
Three fuses power the power supply side of the three relays.

If my linear equation is correct,
Relay 1 should have a 10 amp fuse, Stage 1 draws 4 amps.
Relay 2 should have a 15 amp fuse, Stage 2 draws 8 amps.
Relay 3 should have a 25 amp fuse, Stage 3 draws 16 amps.

The only thing I need to find is a temp switch that can be mounted in the generator that would disable the trigger circuit if the generator temp was close to 200 degrees.
That would shut it down before the water started to boil.

I think I have addressed every control and safety issue I can think of for a turbo equipped engine.

As for the NA versions, I have been giving you all some thought as well.
Something like a FILP for an E4OD tranny and a bit of circuitry to send power to the relay 2 and relay 3 trigger circuit should be easy to come up with.
A place to mount it on an E4OD or C 6 equipped truck might be another issue though.
Someone with automatics will have to chime in on that part.
And any ideas on the electronics to control the relays would also be welcome.
I am spending to much time on turbo engines right now to make any progress on that front.

So now you have seen a simple drawing of my generator, and I just outlined the entire control circuit as I see it needs to be.

That covers all the safety issues I can think of, and it offers more than a single stage gas or no gas setup.
That is as simple as I can see it working and being rather safe at the same time.

Your thought are welcomed at this time.

 

The logic with stepping voltage up is that it should mean less internal resistance of the cell, allowing electrons to flow more easily, supposedly a tesla coil works well to make the step up. I have read that an AC voltage will also work for decomposing water since the water doesn't care which direction the electrons flow, as long as they flow (the electrolysis happens faster than the frequency oscillation). AC is well known as having less transmission loss than DC.

Where were you able to get KOH?

 

couldent you use a temp switch like the one most of the way down this page
http://www.mcmaster.com/nav/enter.asp?pagenum=554

i do have a question, why wouldent you want there to be any gas flowing at idle? couldent the idle speed be adjusted for the boost in efficiency? for give my ignorance i only really know about this stuff in theory but havent seen anybody (beside like a big company) actaully put something together and i am fascinated.

Dave, you should also be able to export your Acad drawings to a BMP format. only trouble is it is harder to read with a black backround

 

The amount of hydrogen you get is proportional to the amount of current. To flow the same amount of current at a higher voltage, you will need a higher resistance in the water solution. This higher resistance will mean higher power loss and more heat -- not to mention, as Dave S pointed out, the complexity and losses of stepping the voltage up.

However, having a weaker solution may have advantages (that I don't know about)...

 

Swimming pool supply house.
KOH is one of the chemicals used to balance the ph of pool water.

One of the articles I was reading showed a power MPG loss at low engine speeds.
I have an idea that was caused by a single stage HHO generator that was drawing to much power at low RPM.

My other reason for not thinking about stepping up the voltage is space, which is at a premium on my truck.

By the time I made the bitmap small enough to post here, you would see colored splotches with no details at all.

I tried exporting a bmp before I drew the drawings above.
The drawing is about 30 x 40 x 30 inches in 3D at a 1 to 1 scale.
After I get done fine tuning and changing things, I will try pulling some 2D viewports that will be readable at reduced sizes I hope.
Probably going to have to make the text huge in the viewports before I export it so it can be read.

 

Pool supply, thats easy enough.

I think the alternators in most vehicles are actually quite inefficient at idle speeds, something on the range of 20% or less, that could be one reason why there is a difference at idle. But really, our diesels are quite efficient at idle, so there probably isn't much point in focusing on that. Same for trying higher voltage, lets just see how it works as is. You already have a fairly complex system in the works.

Depending on what photo software you have on your PC, you should be able to convert a BMP to a Jpeg, I tried to post BMP in my gallery and it didn't work (blank with red X).

 

Dave , can you make the AutoCAD drawings into pdf files? There's a free 30 day trial program called PDF factory that's real easy to use. That would make the file sizes smaller and easier to post.....at least I would think so.

 

Actually I think ACAD 2007 has a pdf export utility built right in, I don't have it running right now.
I use that feature a lot, can you tell?

Probably there will be very little work on my HHO generator this weekend.
A couple weeks ago I took a certification test on design and install Insulated Concrete Forms walls.
The system I was certified in was from Reward Walls.
So today the salesman from a competing company (Logix) gives me about 2000 pages of printed material, and 1 CD and 1 DVD discs full of CAD drawings, Engineering specs, pictures, Building code approvals and certification programs to evaluate their wall system.

Looks like I have a lot of studying to do.
And there will be a test at the end.

I will say I am impressed with Reward Walls, a bit expensive to do when you build them, but R 22 walls that can withstand 200 MPH winds with minor damage.
What got my attention was the heating and cooling costs, way low.

 

I am seeing that style of home catch on slowly where I am. So far every builder I talked to that has tried it is impressed and would use it again. Some use it just for the foundation walls, while others use it for the walls all the way to the roof. Better R-value, sound insulation, and best of all nothing to rot out (we see a lot of rotten wood on the BC coast). I expect to see even more this summer when building picks up.

Its like comparing a wood and canvas canoe to a wielded aluminum crew boat, you build one and thats all you ever need. Wish they made trucks that way.....

 

Dave S. a few houghts on your circuits. Souldn't HOBS 2 and 3 be powered off relay T as well. or did I missunderstand and that is your intention? Ok its just one thought.

And for the N/A thing a FIPL styl swich wouldn't be an optomum set up unless there was some computorised controller that acted much like the TCU, or what ever the corect term for it is, that also reads VSS because once you get to your cruiseing speed the rpm it will requre less throtle at rpm so same air flow but les voltage from FIPL. Maybe some adaptation of the tach signal would work.

 

Actually relay T does power the both of the Hobbs switches.
I got a little sidetracked with the start of gas production when relay 1 closed.

So now when the timing advance turns off, the relay T closes and sends the power on to the next relay 1.
This trigger circuit also powers two more Hobbs switches, more on that later.

The wire out of relay T goes to the trigger terminal of relay 1 and to both of the power in terminals of Hobbs 2 and Hobbs 3.
Power out of Hobbs 2 goes to relay 2 trigger terminal.
Power out of Hobbs 3 goes to relay 3 trigger terminal.

The trigger circuit is going through several switches and one relay before it triggers relay 1, 2 and 3.
Relay trigger power is the only thing on the trigger circuit, so the amperage load will be small, and the wire size can also be small.

Advance Auto has a four terminal relay that would work for relay 1, 2 and 3 fro about 6 bucks each, they can handle up to 30 amps each.
Bosch makes a five terminal relay for about the same money that can close or open the power circuit when power is applied to the trigger terminal.
The schematic reminds me of a double throw single pole toggle switch.
NAPA has Hobbs switches that are adjustable, they would be the highest priced thing in the whole system, around 30 dollars each if I remember right.
But that price is old, I got one there when I was playing with propane several years ago.

I edited the post that was copied from, it may be more clear now.
And I fixed a few of my spelling mistakes.

 

Yeah I was wondering around lowes yesterday and relised after I build the generator hooking it to the engine and wireing it is going to nickle and dine me like crazy so I went to a lockal trans shop and bouts some goodies for my E4OD no more waiting for revers to engage! And Firmer shifts! Hope fully still gotta put them in.

Any Ideas of a good source for stainles? I checked out swich covers but they are way thin. Also wahts your plan for housing your plate setup?

 

For my first attempt I will probably hit the Wally World plastic container aisle and see what they have close to what I need.

We have three metal fab shops/machine shops close to me.
The one that I normally go to had it in stock, but since I have an account there, I don't even know how much I spent yet.

I am going to guess this thing is going to cost a bit over 200 dollars to put together with all the bells and whistles I have outlined.
But looking at several commercial sites and looking at prices there for single stage units that are not going to produce as much gas in my opinion, I think that is bargin basement for a multi stage unit.

As I have it figured right now, my plate assembly will be 18" long x 6" wide x 2" thick.
8 full length negative plates
14 half length positive plates