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Quote :
''There seems to be a correlation between the way the pick-up is properly functioning and will allow vac advance, or not functioning and not allowing advance.
Maybe that was a function of the lower resistance across the wires compared to the Standard Ignition part?
It seems apparent the pick-up affects initial mechanical timing.
To what degree depends on its resistance (as evidenced by the SI and MP readings and nothing else changed) and whatever else it is that we can’t get to the bottom of that is not allowing vac advance.''
Why is your stupid thread so addictive ? LOL
The comments in your above quote are interesting.
We know that the pickups are placed into a fixed position via pins.
Are you putting the reluctor back into its exact position each time you change the pickups ?
I'm glad to see that the vac adv is off the table.
I’m only 99% sure also, in a situation that calls for nothing less than 100%.
Haha, I agree, reluctantly.
Ok, I mentioned conflicting voltage specs earlier, and yes, I had also seen the conflicting ohms specs.
I had also read that the red wire entering the ignition module was a resistor wire. Umm, no !!??
Considering your quote in my last post, and considering the red wire crap, and considering the zero ohm readings on the orange and purple wires to ground, I'd like you to do a quick observation if possible.
With the engine off, and the ignition on, can you measure the voltage at the pink wire where it meets the controller connector. Unplug it and measure at the pin.
In theory this is a resistor wire, so let's see if it really is.
If it is not, hmm, ok, so be it.
If it is, could you attach a wire between the pink wire and red wire orange pin at the other connector , run the engine with the vacuum disconnected, and observe, and with the vacuum connected, and observe.
Only do this if you understand why I'm suggesting it.
Basically the extra resistance will reduce voltage to the coil and pickup, and it might tell us something.
Or it's too late and the pickups have already been destroyed by too much voltage which means it will tell us nothing.
It would really help if we had a pickup which measured >70k ohms, and I know you know that.
The fact that no pickup from 2 different manufacturers measured any ohms on the orange/purple wires is odd, and too coincidental maybe.
If it is, could you attach a wire between the pink wire and red wire orange pin at the other connector , run the engine with the vacuum disconnected, and observe, and with the vacuum connected, and observe.
Ignore that suggestion !!!
Sorry, I was busy looking around and I just saw that the module has different color coding. FFS !
The diagrams show red/white wires, but the module has green/black.
I'm not saying anything more until I have my ducks in a row.
Quote :
''There seems to be a correlation between the way the pick-up is properly functioning and will allow vac advance, or not functioning and not allowing advance.
Maybe that was a function of the lower resistance across the wires compared to the Standard Ignition part?
It seems apparent the pick-up affects initial mechanical timing.
To what degree depends on its resistance (as evidenced by the SI and MP readings and nothing else changed) and whatever else it is that we can’t get to the bottom of that is not allowing vac advance.''
Why is your stupid thread so addictive ? LOL
The comments in your above quote are interesting.
We know that the pickups are placed into a fixed position via pins.
Are you putting the reluctor back into its exact position each time you change the pickups ? No. I’m going on the ‘assumption’ that all dimensions and specs are the same and as you said, it’s position is fixed. So is the armature so in theory nothing changes. I could try seeing where the alignment is TDC but that method has shown to be an estimate at best. Maybe that explains the 7* difference between the two brands. The BIG difference was when I changed out the SI pick-ups and the replacement ended up working. Here are the notes I logged at that time (I have never posted these before now). Also, my last note from the day before was initial was secured at 16*.
”New stator. (I didn’t log it but this was when I also wired in the engine harness plug using temp connectors so everything was in place then as now except the permanent wiring. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming). Wouldn’t start/backfire through carb. Pull #1 plug, find TDC, was way retarded 20*+. Set armature slightly advanced of TDC on crank. Started, ran, set initial @ 16*. Big dizzy swing, was way advanced. (Another side note, I didn’t log the exact degree. It runs in my memory it was over 30*). Hook up vac advance - RUNS GREAT! Switch to manifold vacuum and adjust idle speed. Test drive 3 miles. Runs great. Starts right up after sitting a few minutes.
Wire-in dizzy plug. Engine will hardly turn over on starter. Retard dizzy until it starts. It was 30+* advanced. Big swing to bring back down to 16*. Back to misfiring with advance connected.”
I'm glad to see that the vac adv is off the table.
Ok, I mentioned conflicting voltage specs earlier, and yes, I had also seen the conflicting ohms specs.
I had also read that the red wire entering the ignition module was a resistor wire. Umm, no !!??
Considering your quote in my last post, and considering the red wire crap, and considering the zero ohm readings on the orange and purple wires to ground, I'd like you to do a quick observation if possible.
With the engine off, and the ignition on, can you measure the voltage at the pink wire where it meets the controller connector. Unplug it and measure at the pin.
In theory this is a resistor wire, so let's see if it really is.
If it is not, hmm, ok, so be it.
If it is, could you attach a wire between the pink wire and red wire orange pin at the other connector , run the engine with the vacuum disconnected, and observe, and with the vacuum connected, and observe.
Only do this if you understand why I'm suggesting it.
Basically the extra resistance will reduce voltage to the coil and pickup, and it might tell us something.
Or it's too late and the pickups have already been destroyed by too much voltage which means it will tell us nothing.
It would really help if we had a pickup which measured >70k ohms, and I know you know that.
The fact that no pickup from 2 different manufacturers measured any ohms on the orange/purple wires is odd, and too coincidental maybe.
Here is where I will need to read for comprehension before proceeding. Other life events are getting in the way. I’ll be back with more later today or tomorrow.
In the meantime can you clarify what pink wire you’re talking about? Edit: never mind. Dumb question.
Here is where I will need to read for comprehension before proceeding. Other life events are getting in the way. I’ll be back with more later today or tomorrow.
In the meantime can you clarify what pink wire you’re talking about? Edit: never mind. Dumb question.
I don’t need to read for comprehension. There is battery voltage at the pink wire that isn’t feeding anything. There is no corresponding pin in the socket coming from the ICM.
That means there's never any movement in the pickup or reluctor, and are therefore not the cause of our problem. Do you agree ?
2. Did you really make an 'assumption' . Yes you did. Guess where you'll be tomorrow between 4pm and 8pm !!!!! LMAO
3. Agreed. Now we just have to find the cause of the pickup failure, especially as it proved to be 100% fault free out of the box.
4. My regular program is 'Keeping up with the Kardashians', and now that you'll be busy for a while, great, I can try and keep up with them. LOL
I've been forever wasting time scrolling back into this thread's abyss, looking for info and pictures and links and sanity. No more.
I've put all the crap into one PDF, attached, and will make reference to it from here on in. I'll keep attaching it if need be to make life easier. Consider this post as a fresh start on diagnosing the last remaining problem
Looking more closely at the picture on page 1, several wires look like they might be damaged, and the plug looks suspect, especially at the orange wire area. Please have a good close up look at the actual wiring and check their integrity. Report your findings please.
Is your new controller also a NAPA TP 35 with exactly the same colors ?
Is the insulator black ? What is the difference between a black and green insulated module ???? (You mentioned colors long ago.)
Using Rockauto's website, here's a 1974 module, LX200, same colors as your existing TP 35, and almost identical to your shop manual on page 4, a breakerless ignition, and matches f$$k all on page 7. :
1975, LX 201, which DOES NOT match the diagram on page 3, but matches the second diagram on page 7 perfectly, which is a DS 1, and that's the diagram I've been using :
The PO had cut some wires, for whatever reason, and maybe he got a new/different module as well ???
I was 99% sure that you had a DS1. Now I'm 0% sure.
Here's what I'm thinking :
Physically follow the wires from the module to the pickup and coil, and post up your findings.
We need to know EXACTLY what we're working with. For example, earlier you confirmed that the coil had a green and red wire going to it. There is no red wire leaving the module that I can see, unless the pink wire is actually a faded red wire.
Once we know, with 100% certainty, what module and what wiring we have, and should have, we can then revisit coils to determine which coil (FD471 points or FD476 electronic) EXACTLY matches the module.
It looks like FD476 is the one to use. Which one is fitted currently ? (I've forgotten.)
In the meantime, I'll be watching the Kardashians, with my feet up, havin' a coffee, eyes glued to the screen, and measuring my IQ levels from time to time.
( I read somewhere that watching the series increased a person's IQ. )
That means there's never any movement in the pickup or reluctor, and are therefore not the cause of our problem. Do you agree ? LOL! I misunderstood your question. I thought you were asking if I lined it up TDC with each change. Yes to your last statement and question.
2. Did you really make an 'assumption' . Yes you did. Guess where you'll be tomorrow between 4pm and 8pm !!!!! LMAO I have a valid defense on this one. My assumption was based on ignorance and not thinking about it, not considering and rejecting. Hank will have to find company somewhere else. This time anyway.
3. Agreed. Now we just have to find the cause of the pickup failure, especially as it proved to be 100% fault free out of the box. Yup, exactly
4. My regular program is 'Keeping up with the Kardashians', and now that you'll be busy for a while, great, I can try and keep up with them. LOL The only programming I can think
of offhand that is at least if not more worthless is Real Housewives. But all those shows print money.
I've been forever wasting time scrolling back into this thread's abyss, looking for info and pictures and links and sanity. No more.
I've put all the crap into one PDF, attached, and will make reference to it from here on in. I'll keep attaching it if need be to make life easier. Consider this post as a fresh start on diagnosing the last remaining problem Nice! Very helpful. I’ve downloaded and saved it.
Looking more closely at the picture on page 1, several wires look like they might be damaged, and the plug looks suspect, especially at the orange wire area. Please have a good close up look at the actual wiring and check their integrity. Report your findings please. I know how the wires got squeezed. I had a plastic wire tie holding wire loom in place. A bit tight it seems. I’ve already closely inspected and put an ohm meter on each one. They’re good.
Is your new controller also a NAPA TP 35 with exactly the same colors ? Yes. Slightly upgraded to TP35A, longer warranty.
Is the insulator black ? What is the difference between a black and green insulated module ???? (You mentioned colors long ago.) Yes, black. Other colors came in later years: blue, green, and even red I think. Different wiring. One was California only, probably had to do with emissions but I don’t recall exactly. I haven’t spent any time to speak of researching them since it’s immaterial.
Using Rockauto's website, here's a 1974 module, LX200, same colors as your existing TP 35, and almost identical to your shop manual on page 4, a breakerless ignition, and matches f$$k all on page 7. :
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...7172&jsn=10937 With emphasis on the almost. I always said I have a system that almost seems a hybrid of DS1 and ‘breakerless’, remember? The colors on the module and the harness plugs match with 3 exceptions: 1) no blue wire in sight on the module or the wiring harness
2) there’s the 12v pink wire on the harness (plug) side that goes to a blank spot on the ICM socket
3 the colors match but the configuration of the wires in the plugs is different. You can see this on page 1. I’ll get better pictures. I haven’t seen this plug configuration diagrammed anywhere, but yet the module is readily available. Weird.
1975, LX 201, which DOES NOT match the diagram on page 3, but matches the second diagram on page 7 perfectly, which is a DS 1, and that's the diagram I've been using :
The PO had cut some wires, for whatever reason, and maybe he got a new/different module as well ??? Not ruling anything out. For full consideration I have a spare that came with the vehicle in 2006 so I think (see, I didn’t use the word assume) it was the one that replaced the one I just replaced. It is a Standard Ignition, no part number visible. Same wire colors and configuration as the TP 35. There have been no modifications made to any of the other 3 plugs.
I was 99% sure that you had a DS1. Now I'm 0% sure.
Here's what I'm thinking :
Physically follow the wires from the module to the pickup and coil, and post up your findings. I have already done that with resistance readings reported on a previous post. The only 2 I have not traced are the red and white power wires from the ignition. No reason to that I can see. The ignition problem is after that UNLESS the red wire is supposed to be resisted, and it is not as it sits today nor do I think it should at this point but more on that later.
We need to know EXACTLY what we're working with. For example, earlier you confirmed that the coil had a green and red wire going to it. There is no red wire leaving the module that I can see, unless the pink wire is actually a faded red wire. According to the bottom diagram on page 7, which I believe to be most correct, white is power to the module during Start and switches to the red in Run. The question is, is that red wire supposed to be resisted? I believe no, I guess because it says on the diagram no resistor on DS1 and in fact I don’t.
Once we know, with 100% certainty, what module and what wiring we have, and should have, we can then revisit coils to determine which coil (FD471 points or FD476 electronic) EXACTLY matches the module.
It looks like FD476 is the one to use. Which one is fitted currently ? (I've forgotten.) FD471 currently fitted. Remember when I emailed Standard Ignition for help with this question? They got back to me last week sometime and verified FD471 is the one to use. I measured 1.4 ohms between the + and - terminals. The spec on the bottom of page 10 states different ranges for DS1 and DS2 and the FD471 meets the spec for DS 1 (and DS2 for that matter). The Accel Super Comp that was replaced was 1.5 ohms. The case of the FD471 has ‘Use With External Resistor’ printed on it. If the feed is supposed to be less than 12 volts wouldn’t that have the effect of overheating the coil and hastening its early demise but not much else, and nothing to do with the stator?
In the meantime, I'll be watching the Kardashians, with my feet up, havin' a coffee, eyes glued to the screen, and measuring my IQ levels from time to time.
( I read somewhere that watching the series increased a person's IQ. ) Not even sure here to go with that.
See above as usual. Contemplating and pondering exactly where to go from here. I have the evening to think about it.
This is a Solid State ignition system. Not DS1 or DS2 per the following from the Maverick and Comet Repair document:
-my system has regular dizzy cap and rotor. DS systems use the large oversized cap and special rotor
-the primary circuit is energized with ignition switch on Solid State. Tonight for the first time I measured voltage at the + side of the coil with key in Run but not running. 5.75 volts! Resisted! 2.0 ohms though, should be 1.35 so this needs looked at closer.
-ignition coils for the 2 systems (Solid State (SS) and DuraSpark (DS) have different terminals to prevent interchanging them though the document doesn’t describe which is which. My coil connections are the old school stud type vs. the clip-on type I saw on the FD476 coil. My guess is the old school terminal goes with the SS system. Also the FD471 that I have is to be used with an external resistor that lo and behold, I also have.
Here is a better picture of my ICM wire plug configuration. In my last post I said the red wire ran to the coil from the ICM. The red wire from the ICM feeds into a white wire with blue slash during crank then switches to another white / blue slash wire that is connected to the white wire from the ICM. These wires look pale yellow in the photo. Both of the white/blue slash wires must change to red in the harness because that is the color of the wire on the + termimal on the coil and where I measured 5.75 volts and 2.0 ohms. The spec is 1.3. The coil itself is 1.4.
So it appears there may be too much resistance on that wire. If so, could that be a contributing cause to the vac advance problem?
Sorry if i missed it I skimmed quickly, need to reread. Ive been mia.....thought read balancer slipped problem solved???? Maybe not and I missed it.
No stronger pills just up the amount. I'll sent you what I have left over.
Seems praying to the ford gods or having the Mrs send a stern email with threats works good too.
But one thing I noticed in very last picture. Is the control unit mounted to a good ground. (Screwed to inner fender and fender has good ground) I couldnt tell in the photo
Grasping at another straw without full info sorry again if does not apply.
So it appears there may be too much resistance on that wire. If so, could that be a contributing cause to the vac advance problem?
There is no vac adv problem, only an electrical problem.
This thread is 862 pages long with 14,937 posts because we have been working with misleading crap.
I'm not surprised at your confirmation that the ignition is solid state, and that right there is our new starting point.
With the conflicting info presented thus far, I would only use the shop manual for reference, and ignore every other reference.
I would start afresh with ohms testing and voltage testing, and make new notes. Maybe a waste of time, but it doesn't take long.
For example, you had measured 12v earlier at the coil + supply, but now you're measuring 5 point something volts. What exactly is dropping that voltage ? I.E. Where is the resistance coming from, and is it in accordance with the shop manual.
We mustn't forget that the engine ran free of any electrical faults prior to the dizzy being worked on.
We subsequently found that one HT lead that was dead, one had a questionable fitting, and new spark plugs played a part. Genuine coincidence.
We now know with certainty that the TP35 module, FD471 coil, and LX204 pickup, are all matched correctly.
(Mind you, is it worth asking Standard to confirm ?)
I think we knew that already, but the misleading crap threw us off.
We know that the pickup and reluctor can only be fitted in one position, which means we are not inadvertently causing a problem there.
The only thing that seems to be changing is movement in the wires !!! (The wires are moved or wiggled when working with them.)
The connectors, for example, are 40 years old, and could well have a hidden fault lurking within them.
We know that a brand new pickup worked, just before it died a sudden death.
I'm looking for more genuine coincidences.
The 70k ohm specs remains a mystery.
I don't think that too much voltage to the coil, say 12v instead of 5v, will kill the coil, but rather it will kill the pickup. (That's how I killed my first Ignitor. )
Conversely, if too little voltage reaches the pickup, it probably won't have enough strength to do its job.
With regard to white, red, blue, yellow, etc, wires feeding this or that, I'm ignoring anything in previous posts.
For example, the shop manual shows a blue wire connecting to the coil + , but in reality it's red, as you just mentioned, but I think it's best to see exactly what wire does what.
Yes it's gonna be a p.i.t.a., but it will give you a 100% understanding of the wiring. (Totally optional of course.)
Hmmm, the ICM was removed and replaced, and 77 HOS asked if the grounding is good. You had said previously that it was screwed down, which implies a yes.
Test it. MM+ to battery +, and MM- to ICM cover. A 2 second test, but hey, why not, we are looking for something 'silly' in the wiring.
LMAO, I agree totally with you Real Housewives comment.
That sh$t is on season 11 already, and Mrs 6 by 8 loves it.
Sorry if i missed it I skimmed quickly, need to reread. Ive been mia.....thought read balancer slipped problem solved???? Maybe not and I missed it. I think you’re thinking of someone else. I never had a slipped balancer.
But one thing I noticed in very last picture. Is the control unit mounted to a good ground. (Screwed to inner fender and fender has good ground) I couldnt tell in the photo. I hadn’t paid any attention to the grounding of the ICM and will verify.
I'm not surprised at your confirmation that the ignition is solid state, and that right there is our new starting point.
I would start afresh with ohms testing and voltage testing, and make new notes. Maybe a waste of time, but it doesn't take long.
For example, you had measured 12v earlier at the coil + supply, but now you're measuring 5 point something volts. What exactly is dropping that voltage ? I.E. Where is the resistance coming from, and is it in accordance with the shop manual. I was stunned when I saw 5.75v at the coil in Run. I had checked before but with the engine actually running and the voltage was all over the place and it was impossible to get a decent reading. I posted on this a week or more ago.
We mustn't forget that the engine ran free of any electrical faults prior to the dizzy being worked on. Specifically the problem began when the original stator was damaged and replaced.
We know that a brand new pickup worked, just before it died a sudden death. What caused it’s death is part of the answer.
The 70k ohm specs remains a mystery.
I don't think that too much voltage to the coil, say 12v instead of 5v, will kill the coil, but rather it will kill the pickup. (That's how I killed my first Ignitor. ) This is an example of why I wish I knew more about electrical. I can’t see how the higher voltage could make its way all the way back to the pick-up. But OK for now.
Conversely, if too little voltage reaches the pickup, it probably won't have enough strength to do its job. The pick-up coil produces voltage (2.5 volts is what I read somewhere) and sends it to the control module. Correct me if I’m wrong but that’s the only power the pick-up will ever see. It isn’t fed voltage.
With regard to white, red, blue, yellow, etc, wires feeding this or that, I'm ignoring anything in previous posts.
For example, the shop manual shows a blue wire connecting to the coil + , but in reality it's red, as you just mentioned, but I think it's best to see exactly what wire does what.
Yes it's gonna be a p.i.t.a., but it will give you a 100% understanding of the wiring. (Totally optional of course.) Given the debacle with determining voltage on the wire to the coil it’s not a
bad idea.
LMAO, I agree totally with you Real Housewives comment.
That sh$t is on season 11 already, and Mrs 6 by 8 loves it. Yeah and so does Mrs. Go Seahawks!. Pure trash IMO but then again she doesn’t appreciate my program preferences either (Garage Squad, Mecum Auctions, NFL football (Go Seahawks!) and the like.
I prefer ''The real Go Seahawks! of FTE''. Definitely but to be honest I’m really looking forward to the series finale of this story!
Originally Posted by 6 by 8
I've been giving the LX204 a lot of benefit of the doubt, but I don't trust the quality of it.
I'd call that 'genuine coincidence', which is what we were looking for.
No need for any more testing I'd say.
That’s crazy! But it makes sense too. Yesterday while I was reading and brainstorming what is going on I wrote this down about the stators I’ve gone through:
-1st replacement/miswired/fried? (What I meant by ‘miswire’ are 2 incidents: the very first time I spliced the orange, purple and black wires from the stator into the engine harness (before reverting back and using bullet connectors) I swapped the black (ground) and purple (signal) wires. I found it when the engine wouldn’t start. Fried then? The other time was when I jumpered battery voltage to the + terminal
on the coil to eliminate primary power as the issue (remember the erratic and jumping readings I was getting at the coil?). If power can make it back to the pick-up this could have been it’s death as well).
- 2nd replacement (LX204 again) worked then failed. Why? Bad part or…?
-3rd replacement is a different brand, Master Pro. Bad out of the box?
All three still have primary resistance that is within spec even when they won’t allow vac advance. Everything points to this component though.
I’ve been getting the stators from O’Reilly’s. There is a NAPA in town as well and I just looked up what they offer. Not cheap, and the more expensive one looks exactly like the Standard Ignition LX204. My next move after posting this is calling them and deciding which one to get. Wish me luck!
)
The only programming I can think
)
