I roared with laughter reading your first sentence, then got serious, then roared with laughter again reading the last sentence.

Ok, so I have a choice. Go visit Hank, or reply to your questions, which means reading the DS pages posted earlier. Yuk !

Hank's loneliness, and the chimpanzee story, and the fact that Hank was a Catholic priest prior to becoming a janitor, has reminded me why I used to walk with a slight limp after our detentions.

I had buried those memories deep down.

I think replying to your questions will be safer......................and less painful.

Seeing as the DS rash on my hands was a lot less painful than the rash I was just reminded of, I'll start reading the DS pages shortly.

Both options are like being airlifted off the Titanic by the Hindenburg airship !!!!

 

LOLOLOL!!! Now it all makes sense and I see how some of the other stories tie in. Like the clown and the stuffed turkey on the football field.
I hope your therapy is helping.

 

LOL !

OMG, I should have gone to visit Hank !!

I had to go back and start reading the thread again, and I'm only on post 7.

Just a quick question or two, until I catch back up to your last post.

Have you now fitted 9 new HT leads AND a new coil and did you fit them all at the same time?

What's the part number of the new coil fitted ? (Just wanna be sure)

Is there a part number on the control module fitted, and is it the new one or old one ? (I think you said old one.)

 

Is the module currently fitted, NAPA TP35 ?

 

Yup with Standard Ignition FD471 coil. I am just getting ready to pull the old plugs with new gapped ones standing by.

 

Thank you.

I'm at post 15 !!!

LOL, where's Hank when you need him ?

I'm starting to get answers, and I don't have anymore questions for you.

 

Back in post 15, you said, ''The problem is, my vehicle’s wiring, which I’m positive is factory original, does not match anything I can find.''

Back in post 18, you said,''Still no idea exactly “why” on the 2 module wires into the factory 3-wire plug but I’m positive this is a factory 6 wire Duraspark I module system (black 1974 only grommet with 4 wires in and 2 out) with matching factory wiring. Not a blue wire in sight as shown on every DS1 diagram I’ve seen but there IS a pinkish colored wire in the power-out side of the factory harness that is not used. I don’t know where it goes.''

First things first, your dizzy is a Duraspark 1. Period.

Duraspark 2 was only introduced in 1977.

In Rockauto's website, the 1975 Ranchero 400 section :

WVE 6H1093 {Click Info Button for Alternate/OEM Part Numbers} Includes: (1) 4 prong socket and (1) 2 prong socket; Replaces earlier version 4 prong and 3 prong sockets, blue wire prong is not used in this module.

Looking at Rockauto's 1974 section, not one module has a blue wire.

Redroad posted this link in posts 12 and 17 : Dura Spark II

Looking at the 1975 diagram, it has a blue wire, connected to a resistor.

Looking at the 1976 - 79 diagram, there is no blue wire. (It actually states no resistor wire in a DS 1 !!!!!!!)

It looks like your pink wire is the factory resistor wire, used in a 'solid state ignition system', whatever the f$$k that is !!!

So, you can ignore the pink and blue wires, especially as your engine has been running without them for quite a while.

Your ignition module is also for a DS 1.

This color coding in Napa's website is real helpful, LMAO :

https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/ECHTP35

Your magnetic pickup in the dizzy is used on both the DS1 and DS2, and it is also correct.

That just leaves the coil, and FD471 is also correct.

If this measured 1.4 ohms primary resistance, and your old Accel measured 1.5 (which worked for years), I wouldn't stress.
You can use the ohms/voltage tests in Red's link above. (The testing I mentioned for my system is correct, but does not allow for the control module in your system.)

Coffee time !

 

Going back to post 116, the pages show diagrams for a breakerless system, and looking at the diagrams, they are clearly not DS1, and therefore not useful at all.

Hmmm, but your Echlin TP35 wire colors are exactly the same.

No wonder you were getting confused .

The FD476 is for the DS 2, but if both coils have the same primary and secondary ohms ratings, I imagine that you could use either.

Ok, I've had an overdose of Breakerless, DS1, DS2, use different colors, and, and, and, so my last comment on that matter is this : https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-850026/make/ford LOL

Going back to post 120, now I see that you'd mentioned the FD471 is currently fitted.

Yeeeeeeeeeeeeehaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

I'd love to know if the coil, or the leads, were the problem, but I think you changed them both at the same time, so both of them seems to be the answer. Regardless, well done.

Your timing curve is also sorted, umm, almost, as soon as you change the 13L's to 9 or 10L's, or one of these : https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-850026/make/ford LOL

So that concludes the original thread issues.

I think the plugs will make a difference by the sound of things, so take the Ranchero out for a test drive.

Try manifold vac advance too.

The roughness or engine vibration could be anything !!?? Carb tuning, engine mounts, etc.

You said that you have been getting more in tune with the engine since working on it, so maybe a drive will help you determine where to look first.

Your resistor wire didn't lose its resistance, it simply got disconnected at the factory by the looks of things.

So the HT leads currently fitted, still haven't been checked ???? LOL, I'm saying nothing.

The observation of the HT leads arcing in the dark was purely to give you 'hands on' experience.

Hank called me earlier and told me he thought you were cute. My reply to him started with, ''It's funny you should say that.'' LMAO

Anyway, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh. (That's me running away from your nasty Duraspark virus ridden thread.)

 

My comments about no backfires were made with vac advance plugged. Runs great disconnected. Still won’t run with it connected. And I’m getting really weird voltage readings at the coil. Though I struggle to see how the two are connected there have already been too many coincidences. Or have there?

FWIW, today I changed plugs and gapped the new ones at .045. My real or imagined misfire disappeared. I could not and cannot induce a detectable misfire or backfire with vac advance plugged. That changed with advance connected to a ported source. Somewhere in the 1600 RPM range popping began in the exhaust and and got progressively worse with throttle; same old problem here. I don’t see any reason to try manifold vacuum until this is solved.

The next thing I did was take voltage readings at the coil. With engine actually running, MM + on coil + and MM - on battery post, the voltage jumped all over the place from 2.1 to 13.2V (it moves so fast it’s difficult to pinpoint exact highs and lows but I never saw anything approaching 14.6V). With engine not started but key in Run, the voltage was a constant 12.35V when battery voltage measured 12.37.

The other place I checked voltage was across the coil + and - posts. Actually running, voltage jumps around from 1.5 to 5.1, with 4.6 seeming to be predominant. Checking across the coil this way I’d expect to see zero? In Run but not started the voltage was a constant 12.04 when the battery was 12.26.

The last thing I did was ohm out all the HT leads including coil. They’re good.

Thanks for your research on this thread. That has been on my mind to do, too, as well as to revert back to the ignition module to reacquaint myself with its wiring. It’s a gray rainy Pacific Northwest kind of afternoon. Time to go back and reacquaint myself with the beginnings of this thread and look at what you already uncovered. I feel I’ve learned a lot since the early posts so some things that were Greek then will probably make more sense. I need to follow the circuit back to see where the erratic voltage is originating.

Hindsight being 20/20 I should have ditched this ignition system before I bought the rebuilt dizzy. Now I have way too much sunk into it and there isn’t much left to replace.

Tell Hank hi.

 

I jumped the gun and assumed it was all 100% sorted.

I honestly have no idea why the vac adv is the source of, or is simply amplifying, the misfire(popping) issue.

I still suspect electrical, so maybe test ohms etc at all the module plug pins etc, as outlined in your shop manual, and see if anything stands out.

Maybe check that all connections are clean, free of crap like the HT lead corrosion observed, and can connect tightly.

Now that you have tested the coil and HT leads, you know that they can be ruled out. Also, they have already proven to have been part, or all, of the problem.

The backfire issue was more serious, and the fact that it has been resolved, and you know how it was resolved, is great.

You'll probably never see >14v at the coil + because of the separate module and millions of plugs. The plugs will no doubt have a normal amount of resistance, and collectively will reduce power to the + terminal.

Take my figures from where they come from, and that is a different circuit altogether, although similar.

It just dawned on me that the - terminal on the coil is not a ground, so any reading between the coil + and - will be unusual.

Double check your battery voltage when it's cold. A reading of 12.26 suggests the battery is dying, or, did not have enough time to recharge following multiple engine starts.

A decent drive will charge it up nicely if required.

Yes, you have clearly learned a lot, and will continue to do so.

The annoyances and frustrations are all part of our learning experiences, but are usually outweighed by the sense of satisfaction we get when the problems are fixed.

If I'd by-passed the varying ignition setups +/- 15 years ago and fitted an HEI dizzy instead, I would have lost out on many hours of learning.

I like the HEI dizzy for its easiness to work on, compactness, and reduction in nasty wires everywhere. Sure it's bulky, but hello, so is a dizzy/coil combo.

How much would it have cost to go to college evening classes to study Auto electrician stuff ?

If you ever decide to upgrade to a Pertronix dizzy and ditch the module etc, or choose an HEI dizzy and ditch a load more, whatever you paid now is simply school fees.

A gray rainy Pacific Northwest kind of afternoon sounds like the perfect setting for a cozy/romantic stay indoors.

Then I see 'Tell Hank hi'. (Which implies you met with him.)

Hmmm, I'm saying nothing.

 

I started this thread with questions about two ignition problems around timing. One was the backfire starting at 1700 RPM and the other was misfiring with vacuum advance connected. What a journey! 130+ posts spread through 9 pages over 3-1/2 months. Whew!

Today the backfire is gone. Hindsight analysis seems to point to 2 (possibly 3) causes: bad/worn HT leads in particular the coil lead, misfiring spark plug(s), and maybe contributions from a coil with corrosion in the HT lead fitting. Each corrective action seemed to have some positive affect and the backfire disappeared completely when the plugs were replaced.

There is still the problem with misfiring when vac advance is connected. I’ve become convinced this isn’t caused by a fault in the electrical circuit after conducting several voltage and resistance tests yesterday following the guidelines originally provided by redroad in the Comet and Maverick article he provided way back in posts 12 and 17 and then resurrected by 6 x 8 in post 127. I “think” the misfire is being caused by misalignment of the magnetic pickup in the distributor or something similar. Mechanical not electrical. That’s the direction I’m taking next.

I want to express a huge amount of gratitude to everyone who took interest in and offered knowledgeable advice! 6 by 8, redroad and 77 HOS are individuals who stand out for special
recognition. And of course the musical interludes and the visits with Hank.

When I figure out the vac advance issue I’ll post that to wrap up this thread.

 

I thought you had actually checked that already !!??

Please look at post 41 waaaaaaay back in page 3. A nice big diagram with your comment.

How does one ensure that the tooth aligns with the pick up coil ?

For the benefit of anyone diagnosing problems outlined in this thread :

The two pins on the round plate attached to the pick up coil shown in this link :

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...JXReXpNA%3D%3D

connect to the vac adv arm and a plate that sits under the rotor as seen in the picture in post one here :

https://www.stangnet.com/mustang-for...rectly.775096/ (Click on the picture to enlarge it.)

Go Seahawks!, please explain how you align it, once you align it, as one can't tell with certainty from the pictures.

Does your factory handbook give instructions ? (Pure curiosity.)

The aftermarket ''user friendly'' dizzies, like Pertronix, MSD, etc, don't have alignment issues. One simply installs parts, tightens the screws, and that's that.

I couldn't work out why your vac adv would create such a headache, in the misfire context, but having seen the above pictures, and having read the very last post in the thread below, which starts with ''woohoo'',it looks like the alignment or pickup is at fault.

https://classicbroncos.com/forums/ar.../t-262170.html (''As soon as the vacuum hit it, the line up of the pickup coil and the reluctor wheel would change enough....'')

Hopefully it's only an alignment issue. Fingers crossed.

 

Do you have one of these fitted inside the dizzy somewhere ? :

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...0755&jsn=10950

 

See my comments in bold italics in the quotes above.

In my last post I said “There is still the problem with misfiring when vac advance is connected. I’ve become convinced this isn’t caused by a fault in the electrical circuit after conducting several voltage and resistance tests yesterday following the guidelines originally provided by redroad in the Comet and Maverick article he provided way back in posts 12 and 17 and then resurrected by 6 x 8 in post 127. I “think” the misfire is being caused by misalignment of the magnetic pickup in the distributor or something similar. Mechanical not electrical. That’s the direction I’m taking next.”

Well I am back to thinking it’s electrical and here’s why. There are no adjustments that can be made to either the pick-up or the armature. They are fixed in position. I removed the pick-up from my dizzy today for inspection. The magnet is held onto the metal base by two shafts and cap nuts. There was a fair amount of play in the assembly that I think had to contribute to some sort of signal loss or otherwise affect advance. I clamped the nuts down with pliers and that stopped all
play. Everything else under the cap looked good and moved freely.

6 x 8, I read the Bronco thread with intense interest. It’s helping confirm what I’ve been thinking. Remember what you said about process of elimination, check what you did here, what you did there, and it only leaves Go Seahawks!? That’s exactly where my head’s been. Here is the sequence of events at the very beginning:
-engine runs good but I want to curve the timing
-I disassemble the dizzy, replace the advance springs, and reassemble
​​​​​-the VERY FIRST TIME I tried to start it, it wouldn’t fire. I pulled the cap and (stop me if you’ve heard this before) and found both wires from the pick-up chewed to pieces. I had somehow left them in position to be caught by the armature.
- I replaced the pick-up with one purchased at the local auto parts
-so I have never had it running on vacuum advance with the replacement pick-up installed. Makes you go hmmm, hmmm?

But wait! There’s something else that first started nagging at me yesterday afternoon while I was doing the resistance tests per the Comet and Maverick guide. One of the tests is between engine ground and each of the two wires from the pick-up. The tests are done at the harness plug for the ignition module. The specification is more than 70,000 ohms. I could not register any resistance on any scale. Infinity, right? And higher than 70,000 so
a good thing, right? I also checked and confirmed continuity on both wires.

To go along with this, when I replaced the pick-up I used 14-16 gauge insulated bullet connectors to make the connection to the engine wiring harness as the factory connector had been cut by the previous owner. Now I have a suspicion those connectors might be the source of the problem, which goes back to the Bronco thread, phasing and signal
loss. Whadda ya think?

 

I think that if I ever see another thread with the word 'Duraspark' in it, I'm going to keep well clear of it. LOL

I also think that I'm too dumb to work out how to do multiple quotes, and how to post up pictures, which would make my replies a lot neater.

Below, the bold sentences are my replies.

1/
''The illustration in post 41 comes from the Ford Engine Service Manual. You align the pickup (stator) with the armature by twisting the dizzy with #1 cylinder TDC on the compression stroke and eyeballing it. If you read the posts in that area of this thread you’ll see I tried to set initial by using this process (after setting the timing mark on the crank to 12* IIRC), but ended way high, like 40* when it started. It took me awhile to figure out (and I think it was either you or 77 HOS who said) you can’t set initial that way, only get close. But that did and does seem like it was way outside where it should have been (12 vs 40).''

Now I understand what the confusion was with regard to the stator positioning. As discussed already, and just to recap, the timing marks on the balancer ,and an eyeball guestimate on the rotor position, are used as a starting point only. Setting the timing is finalized by rotating the dizzy to the desired timing shown on the balancer.

2/
''The aftermarket ''user friendly'' dizzies, like Pertronix, MSD, etc, don't have alignment issues. One simply installs parts, tightens the screws, and that's that. Same for DuraSpark. See the main body of this post.''

Ok, that makes sense, and thank you for clarifying. I assume the only way to align the reluctor with the pickup, dead center, is to continually try and reposition the entire dizzy !!?? That sounds a bit dumb, but does one really have to do it ?

Looking at that relationship in the post 41 picture on page 3, it looks ''close enough'' to get a signal. Mind you, as an engine runs, during every rotation, they will align perfectly. Hmm.

Also, 1/2 tooth error might cause too retarded or too advanced timing, but that isn't a misfire.

3/
''Do you have one of these fitted inside the dizzy somewhere ? :
No
https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo...0755&jsn=10950 ''

That little fellow is a ground wire, and poor/incorrect grounding in electrical systems is the root of all evil.

That's the wire I forgot to replace in my Motorcraft dizzy, but I can't remember if it caused any issues to be honest.

Clarify if you have one, don't have one, need one, don't need one.

4/
''The magnet is held onto the metal base by two shafts and cap nuts. There was a fair amount of play in the assembly that I think had to contribute to some sort of signal loss or otherwise affect advance. I clamped the nuts down with pliers and that stopped all play. Everything else under the cap looked good and moved freely.''

Hmm, I wouldn't expect to see any play. Maybe a faulty pickup !? See reply 5.

5/
''I replaced the pick-up with one purchased at the local auto parts - so I have never had it running on vacuum advance with the replacement pick-up installed. Makes you go hmmm, hmmm?''

Haha, yes, I was busy hmmmming before I got to your 'hmmm' bit. Maybe a faulty pickup !? See reply 6.

6/
''But wait! There’s something else that first started nagging at me yesterday afternoon while I was doing the resistance tests per the Comet and Maverick guide. One of the tests is between engine ground and each of the two wires from the pick-up. The tests are done at the harness plug for the ignition module. The specification is more than 70,000 ohms. I could not register any resistance on any scale. Infinity, right? And higher than 70,000 so a good thing, right? I also checked and confirmed continuity on both wires.''

Hmmm, the ground wire in point 3 above may or may not be an influence.

Reading zero ohms implies a dead wire !! (Remember the Coil HT lead had similar characteristics, but allowed the engine to run !)
Maybe a faulty pickup !?

7/
I wouldn't suspect the bullet connectors if they are clean and tight. But my all means note them in a ''to check list'' if we still cannot fix the misfire issue.

I would investigate and correct (if need be) the small ground wire first. (Cheapest and easiest test/observation.)

Next I would buy a new pickup, test it, and fit it if it passed the tests.

8/
In an earlier post you had observed behavioural changes when adjusting the vac adv.

Given that the vac adv is connected to ported, (in theory zero vacuum) I wouldn't expect to see any differences !!

I don't suspect the vac adv at this time, but, no harm in adding it to the ''to check list''.