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Old Nov 14, 2021 | 08:44 PM
  #136  
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I knew the answer to my question (Whadda ya think?) before I even asked. You kept it cleaner than expected, though, LOL!

Like you, 6 by 8, I've spent some time researching/googling misfire with vacuum advance. I'm surprised at the number of hits with engines that run fine until vac advance it applied. GM, Ford and Chrysler so that pretty much rules out the DuraSpark components as the cause (sorry!). Almost all the threads I've followed lead to dead ends without the resolution published. The Bronco thread is most compelling I've seen and his/my symptoms generally match.

I thought I might be onto something with the bullet connectors, you said probably not. So today I practiced measuring resistance. There are 3 wires that come out of the dizzy: two trigger wires from the inducer (orange and purple) and the black negative/ground. I measured resistance on each of the wires twice: once that included the bullet connector and then again disconnected. The readings were taken at the appropriate pin in the plug to the ignition module so it's reading the entire wire. Without connector the resistance on each of the 3 wires is .3 ohms. Including the connector the readings ranged from .3 on the black to .4 and .5 on each of the orange and purple. Seems ok in my novice opinion since .5 is still so low.

Today I also redid the voltage and resistance tests described in the Maverick and Comet document. These same tests are shown in the Ford Engine Service Manual, pictured below. I'm still not confident on my skills with a MM so I wanted to verify my prior results. I'm glad to say they matched so either that's a good thing or I did it wrong twice, lol. There is one voltage for the dizzy hardware that specs "1/2 volt minimum wiggle". WTH is that? A wavering reading not to exceed? And that is the expected result by reading across the two trigger wires, at the ignition module, in Run. I don't see how there would be any voltage there without the reluctor spinning. I don't think it's integral to the vac advance problem in any event so won't lose sleep.

The resistance test results for the magnetic pick-up tells the story, I'm thinking and hopeful. I'm getting 638 ohms between pins 7 and 3, within spec. I'm getting zero ohms between pin 8 and engine ground, as expected. Yesterday I questioned whether infinity resistance (the opposite of and not to be confused with zero resistance) was a good thing when the specification to meet was 70,000 or greater. Today I learned more about resistance. I learned zero resistance is a short / closed circuit. Infinity is a completely open circuit. I checked again today and I'm getting no reading (OL on my MM, or 'infinity', the same reading when the probes are not touching anything) at the ignition module on both the orange (pin 3) and purple (pin 7) trigger wires. Sure seems to point to the pick-up being bad to me. Fingers crossed.

So I ordered a replacement and it will be here Tuesday. I'll make the exchange that day or Wednesday latest. I look forward to hearing any comments from anyone.
 
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Old Nov 14, 2021 | 08:49 PM
  #137  
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6 by 8, you asked about a ground wire in the dizzy. I don’t have one in this dizzy and didn’t in the one it replaced either.
 
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Old Nov 15, 2021 | 05:14 AM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by Go Seahawks!
You kept it cleaner than expected, though, LOL!
Yeah, I was in a bad mood, and I'm still in a bad mood, although to a lesser extent.

I need to blow off some steam, so I apologize up front for the following rant.

I had just finished doing homework on Covid and the Covid vaccine, which I've been studying intensely since January, and the amount of BS out there is annoying to say the least.

My Mother was slapped with cancer by Mother Nature about 20 years ago, but luckily/thankfully Chemotherapy worked its magic, and she has been cancer free ever since.

I only found out on Saturday that she has been living in fear (above 'normal' fear levels) of Covid since March 2020, because a medical professional had told her that the removal of her 18 cancer infected lymph nodes removed (20 years ago), had compromised her immune system.

I told her there's 600 or so lymph nodes in total, that 18 is not an amount to write home about, and that a blood test can measure the strength of her immune system.

She's getting a blood test this week.

We use MM's and vacuum gauges to determine the state of health of our engines. Blood tests, amongst other tests, are used to determine the health of us !

A close friend of mine was released from hospital, including time in ICU, after contracting a very serious bout of Covid.

Oh look, the idiot Doctor gave him steroids in the early days when he had 'mild' Covid. (That also came to light on Saturday.)

Steroids weaken the immune system.

6 years ago Mother Nature slapped me with Diabetes, and I only really believed that something was wrong with me when I lost 15% of my body weight. (I'm not/wasn't overweight at all.)

Peeing a lot and being thirsty are the tell tale signs, both of which I had, but because I was doing intense manual work outside in the sun at the time, I thought I was drinking a lot because it was hot, and then peeing a lot coz I had drank so much.

Wrong !

The Doc sent me off for blood tests and upon receipt of the results, prescribed medication for me for the treatment of Diabetes Type 2.

Prior to this I had bought engine rebuilding books, mechanical engineering books, electrical engineering books, etc, etc, to help me repair/improve things on the truck and around the house.

I now needed to know why I was 'broken', so I bought medical books, and between those and websites like WebMD, DiabetesUSA and DiabetesUK, I started learning a lot.

I didn't know, for example, what a kidney is, and what it does, let alone the fact that most of us have two kidneys.

Anyway, as I was observing my diet, exercise, and blood glucose, nothing made sense.

My sugar levels were all over the place and didn't look to be related to my diet/exercise at all. (They are related. Period.)

Finally after a year of bitching to the Doc, he sent me to a Diabetes Doc.

Oh look, I have Type 1, not Type 2.

The original Doc had not requested a certain blood test which would clearly have identified/confirmed which type I had.

If you're still reading, I'm getting to a point.

During that time, I visited a Dietician/Nutritionist, as suggested by the original Doc, and by that time I had also studied diet and nutrition.

She said that I don't have to consider 'fructose' when planning my diet. (Diet as in what I eat, as opposed to 'going on a diet'.)

Oh really ???? Fructose increases the blood glucose. Period. F$$king idiot.

The Diabetes Doc prescribed a monthly dose of insulin and 20 needles (Nice tiny ones ) that attach to the insulin pens.

I told the pharmacist that I thought he'd made a mistake and actually meant 120. (4 times a day for 30 days in that month = 120)

Luckily she agreed.

Next time I saw him he prescribed 20 again.

I told him that it needed to be 120, and explained that a new needle was to be used with every injection.

He's been prescribing the correct amount of needles for everyone since then.

And last but not least, the NHS website in the UK, reflected an incorrect calculation of calories. Enough said.

So WTF does any of that have to do with Covid ?

Well,

A : 99% (say) of Covid contracted people experience flu type symptoms, and then recover.

B : 0.5% (say) have a nasty experience in hospital.

C : 0.5% (say) die.

D : Published articles in the context of Covid stated that anyone with diabetes is more at risk from Covid than people without diabetes. Hmmm, yes and no !!

The group A people that I know, all recovered with vitamins only.
The two nurses at the Diabetes Doc recovered with vitamins only. (They have recently been vaccinated because they were mandated to do so. )

My friend's Mother, aged 76, is a retired nurse helping out at a hospital, recovered with vitamins and Ivermectin (taken in the right dose, at the right time, within specific guidelines).

Hang on, isn't Ivermectin a horse drug ? LMFAO

With regard to group A, I wonder if early treatment and the natural immune system played a part in a speedy recovery.

With regard to group B, why is that ?

With regard to group C, why is that ?

With regard to group D, why is that ?

The comments thus far are only the tip of a gigantic medical iceberg, ignores many 'underlying conditions' but lead me to three points :

1. As I mentioned before, when/if going for a vaccine/booster shot, ensure that the nurse/Doc/tea lady knows WTF aspirating the needle means.

Group B and C people, who were vaccinated, might have had the vaccine injected into blood instead of muscle.

2. If anyone with diabetes, type 1 or 2, has high blood glucose levels, which have been high for a long time, ummmm, you have more to worry about than Covid.

If anyone with diabetes, type 1 or 2, has well managed blood glucose levels (HBA1c of up to +/- 7% (8.5 mmol/L) ), no need to stress.

3. If anyone is concerned about the strength of their immune system, ok, test it. (Immunoglobulins. Now there's a big word !)

I'm not a Doctor or any type of 'ologist', and my medical experience is limited to putting a plaster on a cut finger, but if just one person benefits/learns from my rant, I'll be chuffed.

Rant over.

The small ground wire is probably only for a points dizzy.

I rechecked Rockauto's website earlier, and they show it in the 1973-5 years.

They don't show it in the 1976 year, which still shows your D4006 dizzy.

You're doing a great job on the electrical analysis/learning so far.

I didn't spend any time researching/googling misfire with vacuum advance. I typed in ''how to align duraspark rotor to pickup'' and spent about 5 minutes only.

I have no idea what a voltage wiggle is, and as you say, you won't lose sleep over it.

Roll on Tuesday/Wednesday, awaiting with baited breath.
 
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Old Nov 15, 2021 | 06:19 AM
  #139  
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I forgot to mention the vacuum advance, and I'm not in the mood to type an explanation.

Going back to the picture in post one of the link below, understand the relationship between the reluctor/pickup alignment when vacuum is applied and the vac adv arm moves :

https://www.stangnet.com/mustang-for...rectly.775096/

If need be, with your dizzy cap removed, suck on the vac pipe, or use a vac pump, and observe the actual movement, with the engine switched off.

I thought my Covid homework was finished, but I just found some notes I made under a heading ''it can't be true'' which I'd forgotten about.

Until my diabetes, I'd always believed, without question, everything and anything that a qualified Doctor told me. (Haha, not anymore.)

With that in mind, one would expect a reputable body like the CDC to give acceptable, accurate, safe, medical advice.

See for yourself : https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/hcp/aci...istration.html

Under the heading ''Intramuscular Injections'', sub heading ''needle length'' , the last sentence states, ''Aspiration before injection of vaccines or toxoids (i.e., pulling back on the syringe plunger after needle insertion but before injection) is not necessary because no large blood vessels are present at the recommended injection sites, and a process that includes aspiration might be more painful for infants (22).''

If that's not playing Russian Roulette then I don't know what is.

The chance of an intravenous injection in the vaccine injection site (upper arm) is slim, one in a something % chance, but it can happen, and has happened.

This will do :

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8436386/

wherein it states, ''Conclusions This study provided in-vivo evidence that inadvertent intravenous injection of COVID-19 mRNA-vaccines may induce myopericarditis. Brief withdrawal of syringe plunger to exclude blood aspiration may be one possible way to reduce such risk.

(Yeah, it states ''in vivo'', but LOL, I doubt real people would not have been experimented on.)
 
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Old Nov 17, 2021 | 03:07 PM
  #140  
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First, 6 by 8, sorry to hear about all the medical problems your family faces. It makes me appreciate my relative good health all the more. Sending all my best thoughts.

This will be a lengthy post. Yesterday afternoon and this morning have been a series of highs and lows. I'm going to recount everything I've done and the results, step by step, in agonizing detail. The bottom line is the Ranchero is sitting in the shop with its third distributor stator/pick-up with the same problem of misfiring with vac advance connected.

A previous owner had cut the factory engine male harness connector so previously when I installed the existing Standard Ignition pick-up way back just prior to post #1 of this thread, I had cut the female connector on the pick-up then made connections with crimp-on insulated bullet connectors. Since I was going to replace the pick-up again I decided to also order and install a male connector on the engine harness. That specific harness connector isn't readily available in the aftermarket but the Standard Ignition S629 can be easily modified to work. I ordered it the same time as the Standard Ignition LX204 pick-up to replace the LX204 that was already in the dizzy.

I measured resistance on the two pick-ups. Reading between the purple and orange wires they were both in the 570 ohm range which fell comfortably in the required 400-800 range. There was .3 ohms between the negative wire on the pick-up and the distributor bowel; the spec is zero but I believe this is OK from the bit I've read recently about zero ohms being a scientific concept. Notably and more on this later, I still could not / cannot get any reading between either the orange or the purple wire and engine ground which is supposed to be greater than 70,000 ohms.

I wanted to know everything was working properly before cutting off the bullet connectors I had crimped on the engine harness, so I made three short (maybe 3") wires to temporarily connect the spade terminals inside the pick-up's electrical socket to the bullet connectors. I turned the key. Initially it wouldn't start and there were some backfires through the carb. I pulled the #1 plug and found TDC. The timing mark on the crank was (get this) 20* AFTER TDC. It had swung 36* from the 16* BTDC it had been set at and secured days before; more on this later, also. So I brought #1 to TDC and twisted the dizzy to line up the pick-up with the armature. That was obviously a rather large swing/adjustment of the dizzy in order to advance 20* (just to get to 0). That got timing close enough the engine started. I reset initial to 16* and connected ported vacuum advance. THE ENGINE RAN GREAT!! I moved vacuum to manifold, adjusted timing down and went for a 3 mile test drive. Good acceleration with no signs of pinging including up a short but fairly steep grade nearby. PROBLEM (TEMPORARILY, IT TURNED OUT) SOLVED AND I'M DOING MY HAPPY DANCE!

I pulled back into the shop and shut it off. I don't remember positively if I started it again before going to the next step, but I'm pretty sure I did to check for hot-start operation. The next thing I did was replace the temp connections between dizzy and engine. I cut the bullet connectors off the engine and stripped back about 1-1/2" of insulation from all 3 wires on both the engine and the plug, then spliced them together with linesman splices and heat shrink. I pushed the plug from the engine into the socket from the pick-up, stood back and admired my work. (I shouldn't have). I turned the key and.... it will hardly turn over. I retarded the dizzy until it started and measured timing. Over 30* advanced! I brought it back to 16* and now the dizzy is back to where it was BEFORE I installed this pick-up. Needless to say it was back to either dying immediately with vacuum advance applied or misfiring with ported. To say I was stunned is an understatement.

The only thing I could think to check at this point was resistance between the socket connections I had just made and the ignition control module. I checked all three and they ranged from .3-.4 ohm, what I wanted to see. The only other thing I could think of was to get another stator so I ordered one for AM delivery. After two poor results with Standard Ignition I went with Master Pro.

Which brings us to today. After picking up the MP I compared it with the SI. The SI appears to be the more robust unit even though it came with some slop in its construction and the MP is tight. The SI measured 570 ohms across the orange and purple wires while the MP is only 479, which is still with specified range (400-800) but close.

Before doing anything I test started the engine. Who knows, maybe the ignition fairies took pity on me, waved their magic wands and fixed it overnight? Nope. Next, without much hope I switched in the old ignition control module. No change so I switched the new one back in. I then replaced the SI in the dizzy with the MP. My first indication that something was different was the engine started right up, with touching timing. However when I checked it was up 6* from 16* to 22*. I moved it back to 16* and connected ported vacuum. The misfires are still there, no change at all except to the initial timing at start-up.

So there are a number of things I don't understand but are somehow connected: why did the SI stator work, then not? Why did the SI retard timing 36* when it was initially installed, when it was working? As an aside, I remember this same thing happening when I replaced the very 1st stator that had wires destroyed by the armature (which is when I made bullet connections). That big timing swing (advanced, coming from a more retarded position where the original stator was working before having wires destroyed) always stuck with me. Is the source of the ongoing problem somehow connected to my inability to get a reading on the 70,000 ohm test on the two trigger wires? The ONLY thing I can think to do at this point is determine if I'm doing that test correctly. It "seems" to be a test of the pick-up circuit since the reading is between the pick-up coil and ground? Even using the battery post as a ground with the other probe on one of the two wires wouldn't yield a reading.

I feel like I'm going to be an old(er) man before I get to the bottom of this.........
 
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Old Nov 17, 2021 | 04:17 PM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by Go Seahawks!
I feel like I'm going to be an old(er) man before I get to the bottom of this.........
Funny you should say that, as I am 20 years older than I was this time last week, and yesterday, I had a hearing aid fitted. LOL

The ''agonizing detail'' you mentioned is exactly what got us to this point.

Many thanks for the good wishes, but I think I gave too much agonizing detail.

I was trying to illustrate that too many medical staff gave wrong information which would have been detrimental to our health had I not done loads of homework.

For example, since day one of the correct diagnosis, my diabetes has not been an issue at all. My homework provided me with enough knowledge to manage it with ease.

I was also trying to hopefully create a bit of credibility so that my message would be taken seriously.

I couldn't just type, ''Warning, insist that a vaccine injection is aspirated, prior to the vaccine actually being injected, to avoid serious/terminal health issues'', without some medical background comments.

Anyway, it's up to the reader to decide if they want to learn more about that very real risk or not, so I shall waffle on no more about it.

A few things caught my eye in your diagnostic update, but it will be a few hours before I can post up comments.

In the meantime, please post up the part numbers of the SI and MP stators that you used, and a description of what you mean by the 2 poor results you had with the SI's.
 
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Old Nov 17, 2021 | 05:04 PM
  #142  
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SI LX204
MP 6-6186

2 SI stators without success on vac adv = 2 fails

Another agonizing detail: vac can is turned halfway out at 6.5 turns in all scenarios I described. Just to provide a full and complete picture of the tune.
 
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Old Nov 18, 2021 | 04:02 AM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by Go Seahawks!
2 SI stators without success on vac adv = 2 fails
LMAO !

That is definitely an advanced mathematical equation.

I read your post again with a 'clear head' this time, understood what you meant, and wished I hadn't asked you a dumba$$ question.

Thank you for the part numbers. I was hoping to see 'something' that differentiates them, but alas, no, nothing.

A few quick comments before writing a big reply.

You said that you used linesman splices and heat shrink. Perfect !!

You have successfully measured resistance on :

Orange to purple was within the 400 - 800 ohms requirement

Black to ground was zero ohms

That implies that your MM setting was correct.

But !

On numerous pickups you cannot read ohms, therefore nothing near the required >70,000 ohms required.

Maybe a dumb question, but I have to ask, was your MM setting correct ?

Are the wires connected to the coil green and red ? (I'm sure they are but just wanted to confirm.)
 
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Old Nov 18, 2021 | 05:12 AM
  #144  
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Before proceeding, ask 77 HOS nicely if he can give you some of his headache tablets. LOL


[QUOTE=Go Seahawks!;20156662]
A previous owner had cut the factory engine male harness connector

I wonder why he did that.

so previously when I installed the existing Standard Ignition pick-up way back just prior to post #1 of this thread, I had cut the female connector on the pick-up then made connections with crimp-on insulated bullet connectors. Since I was going to replace the pick-up again I decided to also order and install a male connector on the engine harness. That specific harness connector isn't readily available in the aftermarket but the Standard Ignition S629 can be easily modified to work. I ordered it the same time as the Standard Ignition LX204 pick-up to replace the LX204 that was already in the dizzy.

Seeing as you are familiar with, and actually use, linesman connections and heatshrink, I doubt that any of your connections/modifications are at fault.

There was .3 ohms between the negative black wire on the pick-up and the distributor bowel; the spec is zero but I believe this is OK from the bit I've read recently about zero ohms being a scientific concept.

I also think this is ok.

I wanted to know everything was working properly before cutting off the bullet connectors I had crimped on the engine harness, so I made three short (maybe 3") wires to temporarily connect the spade terminals inside the pick-up's electrical socket to the bullet connectors. I turned the key. Initially it wouldn't start and there were some backfires through the carb.

Did you remove the pickup from the dizzy in order to connect the temporary wiring, and then refit the pickup ?

I pulled the #1 plug and found TDC. The timing mark on the crank was (get this) 20* AFTER TDC. It had swung 36* from the 16* BTDC it had been set at and secured days before; more on this later, also. So I brought #1 to TDC and twisted the dizzy to line up the pick-up with the armature. That was obviously a rather large swing/adjustment of the dizzy in order to advance 20* (just to get to 0). That got timing close enough the engine started. I reset initial to 16* and connected ported vacuum advance.

That explains the backfire ! LOL This is not the first time that we've seen the timing change.
A Ford engineer went to the trouble of drawing a diagram showing where the pickup and reluctor should line up. Hmmm. I have to assume that it was for installation purpose only !!??
The 7* timing error mentioned somewhere explains the massive initial timing fluctuations I suppose.


THE ENGINE RAN GREAT!! I moved vacuum to manifold, adjusted timing down and went for a 3 mile test drive. Good acceleration with no signs of pinging including up a short but fairly steep grade nearby. PROBLEM (TEMPORARILY, IT TURNED OUT) SOLVED AND I'M DOING MY HAPPY DANCE!

Why did you adjust the timing down ? From what to what ? (16* initial, + 20* say advance, = 36* say, at idle, would be just fine)
Why did you mention pinging ? (If it's because it's your first time driving since making changes to the curve, ok.)
Would you happen to have a video of your Happy Dance ? LOL
The problem being solved, albeit temporarily, confirms that we were right to think that the pickup was the cause of our final outstanding problem. (A small consolation ???)

Did you measure the ohms (orange to purple, black to ground, orange to ground, and purple to ground) before fitting the new pickup ? (I really hope that the answer is a big fat YES.)
This new pickup was clearly fault free.........until it wasn't.



I pulled back into the shop and shut it off. I don't remember positively if I started it again before going to the next step, but I'm pretty sure I did to check for hot-start operation. The next thing I did was replace the temp connections between dizzy and engine. I cut the bullet connectors off the engine and stripped back about 1-1/2" of insulation from all 3 wires on both the engine and the plug, then spliced them together with linesman splices and heat shrink. I pushed the plug from the engine into the socket from the pick-up, stood back and admired my work. (I shouldn't have). LOL

Did you remove the pickup from the dizzy in order to connect the temporary wiring, and then refit the pickup ?


I turned the key and.... it will hardly turn over. I retarded the dizzy until it started and measured timing. Over 30* advanced! I brought it back to 16* and now the dizzy is back to where it was BEFORE I installed this pick-up. Needless to say it was back to either dying immediately with vacuum advance applied or misfiring with ported. To say I was stunned is an understatement.

If you've been removing the pickup in order to do the wiring, then I think it's fair to say that the diagram is in fact for initial setup only.

After picking up the MP I compared it with the SI. The SI appears to be the more robust unit even though it came with some slop in its construction and the MP is tight. The SI measured 570 ohms across the orange and purple wires while the MP is only 479, which is still with specified range (400-800) but close.

What about the other ohm tests ?

Before doing anything I test started the engine. Who knows, maybe the ignition fairies took pity on me, waved their magic wands and fixed it overnight? Don't be silly ! LOL

So there are a number of things I don't understand but are somehow connected: why did the SI stator work, then not?

Hmmm, maybe, and it's a big maybe, your answers to the questions above shine some light on the matter.
I have read time and time again, over several years, different folks have fitted brand new pickups only to find that they were crap. (I have no hands on experience with this.)
I've also read comments about the decline in the quality of Standard's parts. (I have no hands on experience with this either.)


As an aside, I remember this same thing happening when I replaced the very 1st stator that had wires destroyed by the armature (which is when I made bullet connections). That big timing swing (advanced, coming from a more retarded position where the original stator was working before having wires destroyed) always stuck with me.

And you're only mentioning that now ? LOL

Is the source of the ongoing problem somehow connected to my inability to get a reading on the 70,000 ohm test on the two trigger wires?

Maybe !?

The ONLY thing I can think to do at this point is determine if I'm doing that test correctly. It "seems" to be a test of the pick-up circuit since the reading is between the pick-up coil and ground? Even using the battery post as a ground with the other probe on one of the two wires wouldn't yield a reading.

I'm hoping the MM ohm setting was incorrect, but whether it was or not, it doesn't explain the consistent fault with numerous pickups.



Thinking out loud :

The ignition controller box and pickup talk to each other, via the orange and purple wires, and then simply send a message/instruction to the coil via the green wire.

The black wire is simply a brain dead cousin that never gets a mention, coz there's no need for a mention.

If the resistance in the orange/purple wires is too low, then normal voltage could overwhelm(damage) electronics somewhere. (In the pickup.)

Did you happen to test +/-12v at the controller orange and white wires ?

If the resistance is too high, we wouldn't get a misfire, but we would feel a loss of power.

Which reminds me, did you feel any changes in ''pep'' when you test drove the Ranchero ?

Did the drive replenish the battery's mojo ? (You mentioned 12.26v at the battery recently.)

I still don't think that the vacuum advance mechanism/settings is part of this last, small, annoying, challenging, interesting, problem.
 
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Old Nov 18, 2021 | 05:31 AM
  #145  
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You might find this interesting.

The two pictures below show the small ground wire that I had mentioned earlier.

Your dizzy has a ground connection where the wires exit the dizzy body.

Therefore your dizzy is grounded, and the small ground wire is not required.





Notice how the Pertronix ''Ignitor'' doesn't have a reluctor triggering it.

The Ignitor is the neater version of your pickup/controller setup.

Notice how easy it is to change springs and limiters, just like on your Duraspark ? No !!! LOL
 
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Old Nov 18, 2021 | 06:19 AM
  #146  
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From: Near my truck
The following has been bugging/irritating me for a while.

On page 23-01-6 of your car shop manual, under ''battery source test'', the coil voltage should be 4.9v - 7.9v. (It doesn't specify DS1)

Hmm, ok, but notice that the controller has a blue wire, which we thought was a resistor wire coz it connects to a pink resistor wire in the OE harness. (12v + resistor wire = 4.9v-7.9v)

In here : Dura Spark II it states that the blue wire is a fusible link.

But it also states that the coil voltage should be 5.5v - 6.5v, or 11-14v on DS1, and no resistor wire in a DS 1 circuit.

We've already noted the annoying inconsistencies and possible confusion.

My point is this, are the control module, coil, and pickup, all 100% mated for a DS 1 system ?

Or, is there any resistor wire in the 'run' ignition circuit ? (Probably not coz you read 12v at the coil)

Could the failure of soooooooooooooo many pickups be a genuine coincidence ? (If yes, then : https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-850026/make/ford )
 
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Old Nov 18, 2021 | 10:21 AM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by 6 by 8
On numerous pickups you cannot read ohms, therefore nothing near the required >70,000 ohms required.

Maybe a dumb question, but I have to ask, was your MM setting correct ? I tried all ranges on the ohm scale from 1 up to 1,000,000+

Are the wires connected to the coil green and red ? (I'm sure they are but just wanted to confirm.)
Yes

[QUOTE=6 by 8;20157365]Before proceeding, ask 77 HOS nicely if he can give you some of his headache tablets. LOL
Nothing stronger available???

Originally Posted by Go Seahawks!
Seeing as you are familiar with, and actually use, linesman connections and heatshrink, I doubt that any of your connections/modifications are at fault.

I double-checked my wiring to make sure I didn’t cross one somehow. I didn’t. There is also very low resistance on the wires through the splices.


I wanted to know everything was working properly before cutting off the bullet connectors I had crimped on the engine harness, so I made three short (maybe 3") wires to temporarily connect the spade terminals inside the pick-up's electrical socket to the bullet connectors. I turned the key. Initially it wouldn't start and there were some backfires through the carb.

Did you remove the pickup from the dizzy in order to connect the temporary wiring, and then refit the pickup ? No. Work was done with the stator installed.

I pulled the #1 plug and found TDC. The timing mark on the crank was (get this) 20* AFTER TDC. It had swung 36* from the 16* BTDC it had been set at and secured days before; more on this later, also. So I brought #1 to TDC and twisted the dizzy to line up the pick-up with the armature. That was obviously a rather large swing/adjustment of the dizzy in order to advance 20* (just to get to 0). That got timing close enough the engine started. I reset initial to 16* and connected ported vacuum advance.

That explains the backfire ! LOL This is not the first time that we've seen the timing change.
A Ford engineer went to the trouble of drawing a diagram showing where the pickup and reluctor should line up. Hmmm. I have to assume that it was for installation purpose only !!??
The 7* timing error mentioned somewhere explains the massive initial timing fluctuations I suppose.

I don’t think it does explain it. There seems to be a correlation between the way the pick-up is properly functioning and will allow vac advance, or not functioning and not allowing advance. To wit: twice I’ve witnessed huge timing swings when a functioning pick-up is replaced with one that malfunctions or stops functioning. Once when I replaced the original pick-up after the armature incident, and again when the pick-up that was functioning a couple of days ago then stopped working. There was also that slight advance (6* or 7*, from16* to either 22 or 23*) with the Master Pro when it was installed. Maybe that was a function of the lower resistance across the wires compared to the Standard Ignition part? It seems apparent the pick-up affects initial mechanical timing. To what degree depends on its resistance (as evidenced by the SI and MP readings and nothing else changed) and whatever else it is that we can’t get to the bottom of that is not allowing vac advance.

THE ENGINE RAN GREAT!! I moved vacuum to manifold, adjusted timing down and went for a 3 mile test drive. Good acceleration with no signs of pinging including up a short but fairly steep grade nearby. PROBLEM (TEMPORARILY, IT TURNED OUT) SOLVED AND I'M DOING MY HAPPY DANCE!

Why did you adjust the timing down ? From what to what ? (16* initial, + 20* say advance, = 36* say, at idle, would be just fine)
I meant to say idle, not timing! How fricking confusing on my part!

Why did you mention pinging ? (If it's because it's your first time driving since making changes to the curve, ok.)
Exactly

Would you happen to have a video of your Happy Dance ? LOL
https://media4.giphy.com/media/26DOp...giphy.gif&ct=g
The problem being solved, albeit temporarily, confirms that we were right to think that the pickup was the cause of our final outstanding problem. (A small consolation ???)

But…. Is the malfunctioning pick-up the cause, or the affect of another underlying problem???

Did you measure the ohms (orange to purple, black to ground, orange to ground, and purple to ground) before fitting the new pickup ? (I really hope that the answer is a big fat YES.)
This new pickup was clearly fault free.........until it wasn't.

YES! Resistance across the two wires, and the difference between the SI and MP have been discussed above. I still could not get a reading on the orange-to-ground and same for purple.


I pulled back into the shop and shut it off. I don't remember positively if I started it again before going to the next step, but I'm pretty sure I did to check for hot-start operation. The next thing I did was replace the temp connections between dizzy and engine. I cut the bullet connectors off the engine and stripped back about 1-1/2" of insulation from all 3 wires on both the engine and the plug, then spliced them together with linesman splices and heat shrink. I pushed the plug from the engine into the socket from the pick-up, stood back and admired my work. (I shouldn't have). LOL

Did you remove the pickup from the dizzy in order to connect the temporary wiring, and then refit the pickup ?
No. Nothing removed or changed.


I turned the key and.... it will hardly turn over. I retarded the dizzy until it started and measured timing. Over 30* advanced! I brought it back to 16* and now the dizzy is back to where it was BEFORE I installed this pick-up. Needless to say it was back to either dying immediately with vacuum advance applied or misfiring with ported. To say I was stunned is an understatement.

If you've been removing the pickup in order to do the wiring, then I think it's fair to say that the diagram is in fact for initial setup only.

After picking up the MP I compared it with the SI. The SI appears to be the more robust unit even though it came with some slop in its construction and the MP is tight. The SI measured 570 ohms across the orange and purple wires while the MP is only 479, which is still with specified range (400-800) but close.

What about the other ohm tests ?
Already answered above

So there are a number of things I don't understand but are somehow connected: why did the SI stator work, then not?

Hmmm, maybe, and it's a big maybe, your answers to the questions above shine some light on the matter.
I have read time and time again, over several years, different folks have fitted brand new pickups only to find that they were crap. (I have no hands on experience with this.)
I've also read comments about the decline in the quality of Standard's parts. (I have no hands on experience with this either.)



As an aside, I remember this same thing happening when I replaced the very 1st stator that had wires destroyed by the armature (which is when I made bullet connections). That big timing swing (advanced, coming from a more retarded position where the original stator was working before having wires destroyed) always stuck with me.

And you're only mentioning that now ? LOL

It didn’t seem relevant until it happened again.

Is the source of the ongoing problem somehow connected to my inability to get a reading on the 70,000 ohm test on the two trigger wires?
Maybe !?

The ONLY thing I can think to do at this point is determine if I'm doing that test correctly. It "seems" to be a test of the pick-up circuit since the reading is between the pick-up coil and ground? Even using the battery post as a ground with the other probe on one of the two wires wouldn't yield a reading.

I'm hoping the MM ohm setting was incorrect, but whether it was or not, it doesn't explain the consistent fault with numerous pickups.

There seems to be, to me, an underlying cause and the pick-up/vac advance problem is the symptom. What that cause is I have no clue right now. I need to figure out the 70,000 ohm test, and what the valid results are telling me.


Thinking out loud :

The ignition controller box and pickup talk to each other, via the orange and purple wires, and then simply send a message/instruction to the coil via the green wire.

Correct

The black wire is simply a brain dead cousin that never gets a mention, coz there's no need for a mention.

Except to be sure it has the correct resistance. Grounds are a big cause of DC power problems.

If the resistance in the orange/purple wires is too low, then normal voltage could overwhelm(damage) electronics somewhere. (In the pickup.)

Did you happen to test +/-12v at the controller orange and white wires ?

No. And the orange and purple wires are closer to 2.5V, coming from the pick-up coil, IIRC something I saw and read.

If the resistance is too high, we wouldn't get a misfire, but we would feel a loss of power.

Which reminds me, did you feel any changes in ''pep'' when you test drove the Ranchero ?

It ran well. Hard to distinguish any extra pep. The mechanical advance curve has not changed much. Both the old dizzy and the new one had what appear to be close to the same advance springs combo. I still need to curve timing for it to come in faster after figuring out the current issue.

Did the drive replenish the battery's mojo ? (You mentioned 12.26v at the battery recently.)
No, it’s on it’s way out eventually. This battery has been abused in the 6 or 7 years it’s been in the vehicle. Overcharged when the voltage regulator failed and it’s been allowed to completely discharge more than once or twice. Gotta give DuraStart from
Auto Zone its due because it still has life!


I still don't think that the vacuum advance mechanism/settings is part of this last, small, annoying, challenging, interesting, problem.
It’s not the advance. Period. It has to be something to do with the stator.
Originally Posted by 6 by 8
The following has been bugging/irritating me for a while.

On page 23-01-6 of your car shop manual, under ''battery source test'', the coil voltage should be 4.9v - 7.9v. (It doesn't specify DS1)

Hmm, ok, but notice that the controller has a blue wire, which we thought was a resistor wire coz it connects to a pink resistor wire in the OE harness. (12v + resistor wire = 4.9v-7.9v)

In here : Dura Spark II it states that the blue wire is a fusible link.

But it also states that the coil voltage should be 5.5v - 6.5v, or 11-14v on DS1, and no resistor wire in a DS 1 circuit.

We've already noted the annoying inconsistencies and possible confusion.

My point is this, are the control module, coil, and pickup, all 100% mated for a DS 1 system ?
I have forged ahead assuming DS1 after our previous discussion on the subject and trying to determine what I have. I still see conflicting info. It’s definitely not DS2. Maybe the solid state ignition that seems to have been introduced around the same time as DS1? I also saw something about different primary coil resistance values, too, for 3 different electronic (no points) systems. I’ll do some research and post back on this subject. It may be a key to unlock the answer.

Or, is there any resistor wire in the 'run' ignition circuit ? (Probably not coz you read 12v at the coil)
If there is it isn’t working because of the full
voltage at the coil.

Could the failure of soooooooooooooo many pickups be a genuine coincidence ? (If yes, then : https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-850026/make/ford )
But look at all the fun that would be missing….
My responses are embedded in your posts above. I’m back to wondering if this is truly a DS1 ignition system.
 
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Old Nov 18, 2021 | 10:28 AM
  #148  
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6 by 8
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From: Near my truck
Originally Posted by 6 by 8
Before proceeding, ask 77 HOS nicely if he can give you some of his headache tablets. LOL
Nothing stronger available???
LOL !!

I'm 99% sure that you have the DS1.

My notes were there to triple check that all of the components were in fact for a DS1. Kind of a grasping at straws comment. I'm 99% sure the components are correct.
 
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Old Nov 18, 2021 | 10:33 AM
  #149  
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6 by 8
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From: Near my truck
https://giphy.com/gifs/ussoccer-danc...OpJRJMhRPGqUsE

F$$k that is funny !
 
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Old Nov 18, 2021 | 10:50 AM
  #150  
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I’m only 99% sure also, in a situation that calls for nothing less than 100%.
 
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