I don't care what they say now. Fact is, they posted info here that they now claim to be false or misleading. And they never would have corrected if I hadn't said something.

 

And the real kicker is, I thought at least David was consistent, now I can even say that.

 

>>RanDawg -
>>David said that clipping is ok, and that he even severly
>>clips sometimes, and thats ok, as long as the power and heat
>>that the clipped signal produces doesnt exceed the
>>MECHANICAL OR THERMAL LIMITS.
>>
>>Ask David, I'm sure he will be willing to back me up on this
>>as will others.
>
>Oh no no, you can't do that now. No double standards
>
>David Navone said post#153, "Not only do we recommend
>"clipping" the amp, we recommend that it be super clipped"
>
>David Navone said post#153, "Clipping doesn't damage
>speakers"
>
>David Navone. Carsound Magazine

How is that a double standard? Ask David if you clipped an amp so severly to the extent of surpassing the speakers mechanical or thermal rating, what would happen. Seeing as how you are, you probably woulnd't believe his answer anyways.

 

Fact is, none of you guys can seem to get your story straight. Further, you have put yourselves up against the world.

 

Anyway, it doesn't matter. I have shown why it is prudent to buy a larger amp than your speakers can take.

 

Where's the reply to Tracy from Kicker? Or is kicker not a big enough and well known company?

 

You must love the taste of your foot:

geolemon said post#59, "Large amounts of clippnig, that's another story."

then, after hearing David Navone say:

David Navone said, "Not only do we recommend "clipping" the amp, we recommend that it be super clipped"

he says:

geolemon said post#153, "Clipping does not destroy speakers.... and clipping extremely underpowered speakers does abosolutely nothing."

and now bach again:

geolemon said post#220, "Clipping is never "good"... no one has said that."

 

>Where's the reply to Tracy from Kicker? Or is kicker not a
>big enough and well known company?

I don't know, and who is Tracy anyway. rbrendl negates him anyway with his story. And anyway, no matter which way Tracy will side, he will be against half of you.

 

All I want is a VALID reply to any one of my posts disproving ANYTHING that I said and I will admit wrong and agree with you. Until then, stop spouting BS, its time to put up or shut up. Either anwser my, Tracy's, and geolemon's posts with PROOF and FACTS or admit you are wrong.

 

New hear, but not to car audio...I'll add my $.02 worth, take it as you will.
We find two major contributors to blowing subs.

1) over powering a sub

2) pushing a sub past it's mechanical limits

We do not find any problems with underpowering a sub...we do find problems in these cases with customers cranking the gain up like a volume **** in these cases.

Install on any system will be the main determing factor, but customer abuse, also has to be taken into consideration, when subs blow.

As far as putting 200 watts to a 300w woofer..as long as the gains are matched, go for it!

Tracy Focht aka Polecat
Kicker Car Audio
www.kicker.com
There is Tracy's post. He works for Kicker.

 

FACTS AND PROOF

Most speaker damage is caused by amplifiers having too little power, not the speakers being fed too much. Make sure you have adequate power output for the size of room, for the efficiency of the speakers, and the intended volumes you wish to play. (Hi-Fi Corner (Edinburgh) Ltd)
http://www.hificorner.co.uk/homecinema.htm

The majority of speaker damage reported to manufactures today ,is caused by using under powered amplifiers , this is an expensive lesson for the owner as no speaker manufacturer will cover this cost under warranty . To avoid this always purchase an amplifier that will provide more power than you will need. Remember. a loudspeaker can require up to ten times the average power level for those instantaneous bursts of sonic power known as transients. If the amplifier has enough reserve power, transients will be clear and crisp. If not, the transients will be muddy or dull. When an amplifier runs out of undistorted power, it is forced to exceed its design capabilities, producing dangerous power levels rich in high frequency distortion. (Cinepro Productions)
http://members.iinet.net.au/~colinf/

When an audio system is called upon to deliver an instantaneous bass peak the vehicle’s electrical system is, often times, taxed to the limit. This means that the system voltage drops substantially to a point that the amplifiers are unable to produce their rated output power. This is referred to as clipping. When an amplifier clips it will cause distortion and can cause speaker damage. (Stinger® Electronics)
http://stingerelectronics.com/sting_products/Sting%20Cap%20Own.pdf

Actually amp/speaker matching is a little more complex than that, but as long as you ensure the amp you choose is at least as powerful as the speakers' minimum input rating, you won't go far wrong. Too little amp power can cause distortions and, in extremis, speaker damage, whereas using an amp more powerful than the speakers' maximum recommended input wattage is unlikely to cause problems. (What Hi-Fi? Sound and Vision - The World's No1 HI-FI and Home Entertainment Buying Guide.)
http://www.whathifi.com/newsMainTemplate.asp?storyID=40&newssectionID=3

Clipping distortion is the most common source of speaker damage. (Infinity Car Audio)
http://www.infinitysystems.com/caraudio/Techownerinfo/glossary.asp?Char=C

Most speaker damage is caused by amplifiers with too little power. Damage caused by operating the speakers at distorted volume levels is not covered by the warranty. (Bogen Communtications, Inc)
http://www.bogen.com/pdf/54-2038-01R3.pdf

It is very easy to do speaker damage by using an amplifier with insufficient power. The lack of headroom or reserve power may cause the smaller amp to clip, sending a distorted signal to the speaker, resulting in blown woofers or tweeters. (Mike Starnes of Mobile Beat Magazine)
http://www.mobilebeat.com/archives.asp?art=128

Ironically, you are more likely to damage a speaker when using a low-power receiver than a high power one. (Polk Audio)
http://www.polkaudio.com/home/faqad/q.php?article=whybreak

Put simply, any amplifier can damage any speaker, irrespective of power figures. Ideally, an amplifier should be as powerful as possible, and controlled by a sensible user! (Dr. Hi Fi Pty Ltd -- Robin Gandevia is a member of The Electronic and Technicians Institute of Australia (MTETIA). In 1986 he gave the address to the Institute's National Convention on the servicing of hi fi equipment, and has also given lectures on related subjects to the NSW division. He is also a member of The Institute of Sound and Communication Engineers (MInstSCE Eng.), based in England with representatives throughout the world. Dr. Hi Fi Pty Ltd is also a member of The Electronic Services Association (TESA) in Australia.)
http://www.drhifi.com.au/service.htm#Speakers

A speaker with a 100 watt power handling rating can be safely operated when connected to a 500 watt amplifier. The truth is that amplifier power almost never destroys a speaker. In far more cases, it is a lack of power that causes damage. (Joel P. Antonini -- AudioVideo101, The Audio/Video Knowledge Center.)
http://www.audiovideo101.com/learn/articles/speakers/speakers22.asp

As you use up amplifier headroom, the sense of detail in the reproduced sound will disappear. Then you may hear distortion on signal peaks - the distortion is generally easier to hear at higher frequencies, but is much more common at low (bass) frequencies. This means the amp is running short of power to send to the speakers. Allowing this state to continue will reach the third stage of failure, overt distortion followed by voice coil burnout. Many people have an amazingly high tolerance for distortion and just do not notice a problem until it is too late. Most failures resulting from improper operation can be traced to over or under powering the loudspeakers. (THIS INFORMATION WAS DIRECTLY OBTAINED FROM SOUNDTECH)
http://www.allkaraoke.com/watts%20vs.%20decibels.htm

Under powering a speaker is actually a more common reason for speakers to fail then would be expected. An under powered amp struggles to provide a speaker with the power it needs. In most cases the amp is driven in to distortion. (Stephen Ballast - Owner/Engineer BladeAudio)
http://members.tripod.com/~BladeAudio/training-2.html?#limitations

Many people think that you blow speakers because of too much power. In reality, speakers blow due to distortion, which is caused by too little power being availabe for a desired volume level. (Import Lounge - http://www.importlounge.com/pages/members.html)
http://www.importlounge.com/pages/modsICE.html

There is a fallacy that a heavy cone will produce better bass. WRONG! There is also the fallacy that a stiff cone suspension means higher power handling. WRONG AGAIN! The truth is that if the cone is heavy, it will not react quickly to the input signal. Hence without the application of considerable wattage, the signal will be gone from the line before the cone can move and thereby causing an undesirable noise, kind of a flopping honk sound. Not to mention the other restrictions placed on a speaker with a heavy cone. The same thing can happen with a suspension that is too stiff. (Thomas P. Colvin -- Musicians Hotline)
http://www.musicianshotline.com/archive/tech/reconing.htm

Nancy loved music and her stereo system. She could listen anytime she wanted to any music she wanted by slipping a small silvery disk into her CD player and pressing a few buttons. Then one day her wonderful 75 watts per channel amplifier died. Shopping for a replacement, she discovered prices had risen. But the salesman said not to worry -- quality had gone up. He told Nancy that she hadn't really used all 75 watts in her old amplifier and only needed that much power because her older amplifier didn't perform well near full power. He said that she could buy a 40 watt per channel amplifier and play it at the volume she usually used because the newer amplifiers performed very well even close to full power. Nancy bought the recommended amplifier, went home, hooked it up to her system, put her favorite CD on, adjusted the volume to her usual listening level, sat back in her favorite chair ... and one of her speakers blew out. ... Why? (Frank Wattenberg, Department of Mathematics, Montana State University, Bozeman, MT 59717)
http://www.math.montana.edu/frankw/ccp/multiworld/virtual/FourTran/nancy/learn.htm
http://www.math.montana.edu/frankw/ccp/multiworld/virtual/FourSer/learn.htm

Yep, you read it right - under powering can blow speakers. In fact, it is a very common cause for speakers failing. This is a little bit difficult for people to understand, however, we will attempt to present a brief explanation here. (Yorkville Sound Inc. WorldWide)
http://www.yorkville.com/pdf/other/pabasics.pdf

Another misconception: speakers blow because they can't handle power. Again, not true. They blow because the power sent to them is of an inferior quality. (Edmunds.com -- Editor-in-Chief Karl Brauer)
http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/techcenter/articles/44841/article.html

I have heard it so many times: "why did my speakers blow?!? They can handle 600 Watts and I was only running a 200 Watt amp on them!!" What that person failed to realize was that by badly mismatching his amp and speakers, he ended up pushing the power amp so hard that it was constantly clipping. (Dr.Sound - Carvin Corp)
http://www.carvin.com/doctorsound/

Fiction: as long as the power rating of your speakers is higher than your amp's power rating you won't have to worry about blowing out your speakers. "My speakers are rated to handled 100 watts, and my amp only puts out 50 watts. Why did the speakers blow?" (Matt Hennessy (BS. EE, Member IEEE, AES))
http://www.electrosound.com/articles/distortion.html

Top 10 car audio myths: "You can't blow a 300W sub with a 50W amp" This has to be one of the most frustrating of the car audio myths for dealers and manufacturers alike. An angry customer walks through the door of the dealer dragging his recently purchased Behemoth 2 kW subwoofer that's just cost him two weeks' wages. He slams it onto the counter demanding a free replacement on the grounds that it was faulty. (Total Car Audio Dec/Jan 01)
http://www.caraudiodirect.com/magazine/tca/myths.html

Now that we have a realistic power test all you need to do is determine the power rating of the loudspeaker, buy an amplifier with the exact same power rating and enjoy perfection right? WRONG! If it were only that easy, everything would work perfectly and people who re-cone speakers would be in the bread line. The amplifier must be capable of delivering more power than the long-term average power rating of the speaker. (Audio Video Broadcasting - Studio Systems Magazine May/June 1999)
http://www.studio-systems.com/audiofeatures/mayjune99/soundrespeakers3.htm

Oddly enough, the most common problem with matching speakers and amps is using an amp that is too weak to power the speaker. (CarAudioGalaxy)
http://www.caraudiogalaxy.com/caraudio_rmspower.htm

Contrary to popular belief, not having enough power can be more damaging to a speaker than having too much power. (Crutchfield)
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-h9PZf3vjdml/tech/kb303.html

Danger: Low Power
http://www.jblpro.com/pub/technote/lowpower.pdf

Q: How much power should I send to my speakers?
A: Always remember that underpowering a speaker will destroy it much faster that overpowering. When there is not enough power to satisfy the speaker's needs, the amp will try to out-do itself and start to send distorted information to the driver.
http://www.blaupunktusa.com/speakers/speakers_faqs.html

Another major cause of speaker damage: using a low-power head unit with high-end speakers.
http://www.napsnet.com/auto/54366.html

Always keep in mind that low wattage amplifiers are the normal cause of speaker damage. (Colquhoun Audio Laboratories)
http://www.axiomaudio.com/faqs.html

An important factor to consider with any speaker system is the potential for speaker damage. Even though your SS-150THXs have high power handling ability, they still can be damaged by relatively low powered amplifiers. (Miller & Kreisel Sound Corporation)
http://www.sanoconsulting.pl/pdfy/Ss150.pdf

 

>There is Tracy's post. He works for Kicker.

Doing what? Sweeping floors for all I know. He is your friend and will side with you no matter what Kicker's stance was. rbrendel has said he called Kicker and talked to a tech and the tech support my claim. So, at best, your friend has been negated.

 

>Fact is, none of you guys can seem to get your story straight.

Mine hasnt changed yet.

 

My argument is sealed up tight now. So, why don't you guys beggar off and send in HonkeyTonkMonkey. At least he was the funniest one of you.

 

Somewhere in your cluster of links, I'm sure it states that an underpowered amp can't control the cone correctly, right? That was your orignal argument wasn't it?