>>But your question, I see a problem. If you are distorting,
>>you are clipping right? If you are distorting a 300w sub
>>with a 250w amp majorly, the power and heat could very
>>easily surpass its thermal limits.
>>
>
>Distortion isnt always clipping, but your correct, I should
>have worded it more clearly. But a 50watt amp blasting a
>perfect square wave wont touch a 300watt speaker, so we are
>both techniclly correct, just depends on wattage.

What is distortion then? Infidelity? (oh boy I get to ask a question)

"Honey, I committed distortion", he said to GF

 

>Hold on, make sure you like this too. Just because an amp
>is at max capabilities, does not mean it will put out the
>same signal that a larger amp will. I was only saying IF
>they were EXACTLY the same, then there will be no
>difference. Because if A=B then B=A.


I am perfectly fine with that too. But I will go a step further. Say we have amp A that is capable of making 300W RMS without any clipping, and amp B which is capable of making 1500W RMS without clipping. If we set the volume so both amps put out 299W RMS into a 500W RMS sub. The sub will not blow just because it is recieving less than its rated RMS power. There is no way lower power can blow a sub, and there is no such thing as "weak" or "strong" watts, or "stressed" output before clipping. This is what I have been saying all along, and I am glad you finally understand.

What we were all trying to get you to understand is that even though the amp was rated to put out a sine wave of less than the rated power of your sub, the square wave output will be more than the rated power of the sub, OVERpowering, not UNDERpowering. Less power CAN not and WIll not hurt a speaker.

 

All we are (well I anyway) are looking to do is simply reproduce exactly what was recorded. And most of the time this means one speaker on the left and one speaker on the right. (Or a collection of speakers that sounds as one on each side). Because most of the time that is the way it was recorded. Anything other than this is distortion to me, that is for sure. Can't stand rear speakers other than subs. Not much of a fan of x-ways either.

 

>
>Yeah, but that's where I make the leap to the 10 other links
>that say undesireable sound can lead to failure. Don't like
>it, take it up with them. I don't need to prove it to make
>the recommendation to buy a large amp, as was originally
>challenged. Although I do still believe it, given the amp
>was driven near or at max capabilities. Furthermore, he is
>saying it is possible for a signal to pass thru the sub w/o
>making much of a movement. Which is what I was arguing when
>explaining the cinder block scenario. Just because current
>is flowing throught the coil, doesn't mean the cone has to
>move. Therefore, it is not such a leap to believe the cone
>can operate away from the phase of the current sinewave.
>Which may or may not lead to damage, due to heat. I was
>beginning to make a good argument, but things got childish
>and reasonable proof became difficult. No matter, the
>original stance is firm.

Those 10 other sistes stated clipping (distortion) was the cause of failure. Distortion caused by clipping is not the same as your sub making fart noises due to "lack of power to properly control the sub"

If the signal is not clipped, it will not blow the woofer.

Also, the cone control is not soley based on the amp. And also, like stated earlier. Your link nowhere states that this sound leads to failure.

 

And yes, my definition of distortion is ANY change made to the content of your source. alternator noise, pops, humms, clipping, anything, that is distortion.

 

>I am perfectly fine with that too. But I will go a step
>further. Say we have amp A that is capable of making 300W
>RMS without any clipping, and amp B which is capable of
>making 1500W RMS without clipping. If we set the volume so
>both amps put out 299W RMS into a 500W RMS sub. The sub
>will not blow just because it is recieving less than its
>rated RMS power.

It doesn't blow by virture of receiving less watts than rated. But as soon as you turn it up, you'll be hearin some crap from the 300 watt amp, and possibly damage from there. So throw that thing out n get the 1500 one.

>There is no way lower power can blow a
>sub, and there is no such thing as "weak" or "strong" watts,
>or "stressed" output before clipping.

There is a such thing as 'strong' and 'weak' watts, and 'stressed' amps.

>This is what I have
>been saying all along, and I am glad you finally understand.

Me???

>What we were all trying to get you to understand is that
>even though the amp was rated to put out a sine wave of less
>than the rated power of your sub, the square wave output
>will be more than the rated power of the sub, OVERpowering,
>not UNDERpowering. Less power CAN not and WIll not hurt a
>speaker.

See??? you're back to that volume **** thing again. It's not how much the sub gets, it what the amp puts out.

 

>It's not how much the sub gets, it what the amp puts out.

Which isn't this going to be directly related?

If the 200w amp puts out a fully clipped distorted 400w signal, the sub is going to recieve this signal no matter what.

 

>Those 10 other sistes stated clipping (distortion) was the
>cause of failure. Distortion caused by clipping is not the
>same as your sub making fart noises due to "lack of power to
>properly control the sub"
>
>If the signal is not clipped, it will not blow the woofer.
>
>Also, the cone control is not soley based on the amp. And
>also, like stated earlier. Your link nowhere states that
>this sound leads to failure.

If clipping is a subset of distortion, and clipping causes damage, then distortion causes damage too. Because if C=D, and C=G, then D=G too. How about this? Will this hold you til tomorrow?

 

Sigh, back to square 1. RanDawg still doesnt get it. quinton_h, i give up for tonight, im headed to bed, I'll be back tomorrow and see if we can get anywhere.

Good luck.
Sean

 

>>It's not how much the sub gets, it what the amp puts out.
>
>Which isn't this going to be directly related?
>
>If the 200w amp puts out a fully clipped distorted 400w
>signal, the sub is going to recieve this signal no matter
>what.

Yeah, not sure what you mean here. Of course the sub is gonna get it, in more than one way.

 

>Sigh, back to square 1. RanDawg still doesnt get it.
>quinton_h, i give up for tonight, im headed to bed, I'll be
>back tomorrow and see if we can get anywhere.
>
>Good luck.
>Sean

 

>If clipping is a subset of distortion, and clipping causes
>damage, then distortion causes damage too. Because if C=D,
>and C=G, then D=G too. How about this? Will this hold you
>til tomorrow?

Should have used my words better with you.

Its this simple. A distortion free signal (read: unclipped, no outside distortion making its way in) will not blow a speaker rated above this power. Installation error or driver error may cause an undesireable sound. In a perfect setup, with gains set correctly and all outside interference set to a minimum, an underpowered amp can not physically blow the sub. If you believe so, explain once again under the conditions i listed above.

 

The best I can explain the difference between strong and weak watts is like this. Connect a 3w clock radio to a speaker, it sounds like crap. Connect a 3w zen triod tube amp to a speaker, it sound great. That is the difference. How ever you want to quantify that, be my guest, because I can't. Neither can the maker of the Zen amp, but its commonly called 'strong' watts.

 

>The best I can explain the difference between strong and
>weak watts is like this. Connect a 3w clock radio to a
>speaker, it sounds like crap. Connect a 3w zen triod tube
>amp to a speaker, it sound great. That is the difference.
>How ever you want to quantify that, be my guest, because I
>can't. Neither can the maker of the Zen amp, but its
>commonly called 'strong' watts.

And this relates to the below how?

Its this simple. A distortion free signal (read: unclipped, no outside distortion making its way in) will not blow a speaker rated above this power. Installation error or driver error may cause an undesireable sound. In a perfect setup, with gains set correctly and all outside interference set to a minimum, an underpowered amp can not physically blow the sub. If you believe so, explain once again under the conditions i listed above.

Also, did your JL sub, which was underpowered, make this flapping noise your article mentioned? If not, there goes your last excuse that it could have blown, since we have stated that you dont know how an underrated clean distortion free signal could blow a speaker. I am most likely off to bed soon after this post as I have to wake up in 4 hours.

 

>Should have used my words better with you.
>
>Its this simple. A distortion free signal (read: unclipped,
>no outside distortion making its way in) will not blow a
>speaker rated above this power. Installation error or
>driver error may cause an undesireable sound. In a perfect
>setup, with gains set correctly and all outside interference
>set to a minimum, an underpowered amp can not physically
>blow the sub. If you believe so, explain once again under
>the conditions i listed above.

No, if it is a perfect signal with no kind of distortion of any kind, and has sufficient headroom for transients and such so that no distortion can enter, and is at the max capacity of the amp, then I have just described something that is impossible. There is no way this amp will use that speaker to represent the music recorded with fidelity. If you take away the constraint that the amp is at the max capacity, then everything will be fine. Its that max capaity thing that screws us up, and can be rememdied easy buy purchasing a larger amp. There will you have plenty of headroom. Needless to say, your never gonna get me to willingly recommend using a smaller amp than what the speaker is rated for. Even if the rating is crap, I want to make sure I have plenty of power. Regardless of the numbers, just give me a big amp. Turn it down a notch when ya smell smokes. That should be my motto.