>Needless to say, your never gonna get me to
>willingly recommend using a smaller amp than what the
>speaker is rated for.

I don't want you to reccomend that either.

I just want you to admit, that there is nothing wrong with someone on a budget to use an underrated amp if thats all they can afford, because if set up right, it will not blow the sub.

 

>>The best I can explain the difference between strong and
>>weak watts is like this. Connect a 3w clock radio to a
>>speaker, it sounds like crap. Connect a 3w zen triod tube
>>amp to a speaker, it sound great. That is the difference.
>>How ever you want to quantify that, be my guest, because I
>>can't. Neither can the maker of the Zen amp, but its
>>commonly called 'strong' watts.
>
>And this relates to the below how?

Oh, not this. That I was talking about weak n strong watts.

>
>Its this simple. A distortion free signal (read: unclipped,
>no outside distortion making its way in) will not blow a
>speaker rated above this power. Installation error or driver
>error may cause an undesireable sound. In a perfect setup,
>with gains set correctly and all outside interference set to
>a minimum, an underpowered amp can not physically blow the
>sub. If you believe so, explain once again under the
>conditions i listed above.

I don't know, too tired. What did I say before? You sound like a cop. All I need is the bright light in my eyes and a room filled with smoke.

>
>Also, did your JL sub, which was underpowered, make this
>flapping noise your article mentioned?

I don't know, it appeared to come out all the way, but not go back in all the way. And then this would switch. It would go in all the way, but not come out like it did before. And all this changed as the bass guitar changed notes. Listen to the song. You have metallica? What is it, Load? or Reload or something? Bleedin me. low bass guitar, murder on subs. Come to think of it, the source is distorted. No why am I the first one to think of this? So, does it really matter if the amp was clipping? I don't know, I'm off to bed.

 

Wow, can't believe this hasn't ended yet. Just thought I'ed throw myself in here as an example. For the past 6 months I have used a 150w amp to power a 1200w rms sub and it hasn't come close to blowing out yet. Using your logic shouldn't my sub be blown by now since I am using a severely underpowered amp?

 

>Bleedin me. low bass guitar, murder on subs.

I'm a die-hard/long-time Metallica and am very familiar with that song. There are many mood/tempo changes in that long song. I'm just curious as to what part of the song you are talking about.

Tempe

 

http://www.adireaudio.com/tech_papers/woofer_speed.htm

Read the above article, it will hopefully get you passed the myth of a heavy cone being a bad thing.

 

http://www.eatel.net/~amptech/elecdisc/2ltlpwr.htm

 

>http://www.adireaudio.com/tech_papers/woofer_speed.htm
>
>Read the above article, it will hopefully get you passed the
>myth of a heavy cone being a bad thing.

I own a "heavy" sub with a very stiff suspension. Perhaps you've heard of it, the Adire Brahma...

If my Brahma is any indicator, heavy cones or fine. You just need the appropriate motor and suspension to handle the cone.

 

>Wow, can't believe this hasn't ended yet. Just thought I'ed
>throw myself in here as an example. For the past 6 months I
>have used a 150w amp to power a 1200w rms sub and it hasn't
>come close to blowing out yet. Using your logic shouldn't
>my sub be blown by now since I am using a severely
>underpowered amp?

According to the theory from you guys, you would need more than ten times the power due to clipping from the 150w amp. Since clipping increases the power output exponentially, right?

But I'm sure that setup sounds like total ***** anyway.

 

>>Bleedin me. low bass guitar, murder on subs.
>
>I'm a die-hard/long-time Metallica and am very familiar with
>that song. There are many mood/tempo changes in that long
>song. I'm just curious as to what part of the song you are
>talking about.
>
>Tempe


I'm sorry, Tempe, I don't quite remember the exact part of the song. I don't think it was too close to the beginning though, but can't say for sure.

 

>>There is Tracy's post. He works for Kicker.
>
>Doing what? Sweeping floors for all I know. He is your
>friend and will side with you no matter what Kicker's stance
>was. rbrendel has said he called Kicker and talked to a
>tech and the tech support my claim. So, at best, your
>friend has been negated.

On many of your 'beliefs' and post, you are wrong...I will not sit here and argue with them, as I am in the industry you argue about.
I am the Distribution Director for Kicker, and 5th in senority ad have been happily employeed here for 15 years.I've been around car audio for quite some time, and so happen work with some of the larger names in car audio. Mark Eldridge is one, and he was a co-worker with Richard Clark.

We find no evidence that underpowering speakers is a cause for a premature driver loss. Like i stated in my earlier post, it is usually from
a) overpowering
b) pushing past mechanical limits

I could really care less what others might find, if so, they may want to look at build quality if 25 watts kills a 100w woofer.
Clipping, or pushing a cheaper, smaller amp past it's limits, will hurt the driver. A true mis-conception that it was because it was underpowering.

And other, you state that no car audio manufacture will warranty these such claims, you again, are wrong. We even ( as well as other car audio manufactures)do cover factory defect, customer abused subs. A majority of the ones turned in are customer abuse. And this is not just us, we have rep's that used to work for Alpine, Rockford, eclips, etc...so they know the industry.

If you want to continue to belive that low power kills speakers, by all means, go ahead. But without long history and dat, you can't get me to swing, to that belief.

have a nice day.

Tracy Focht
Kicker Car Audio
www.kicker.com

 

>http://www.adireaudio.com/tech_papers/woofer_speed.htm
>
>Read the above article, it will hopefully get you passed the
>myth of a heavy cone being a bad thing.


"There's a common misconception out there, that heavy woofers must be "slow", and light woofers must be "fast"."

**He is correct here given power is unlimited.
However, ask any serious SQ audiophile and you find they own extremely light cones.

"If a woofer A's moving mass is higher than woofer B's, then woofer A is probably going to be sloppy, or slow and inaccurate. Can't keep up with the bass line. Woofer A simply can't respond as fast as woofer B."

**This is usually true, per watt, the lighter cone will react faster. This is why the Lowther is one of the fastest drivers made, it has a super light cone and large motor. Same for cars. Light weight + powerful motor = fast acceleration. Ask any drag racer.

"BLi = ma (eq 2)"

**So by rearranging terms we have a = BLi/m It is easy to see that as m rises, a will fall, for a given BLi.

"acceleration of a driver - how fast it can change position - is strictly a function of the current through the driver."

**True, given what he said about linearity in the assumptions. Even though this is rarely (if not never) the case, like he said.

"In fact, if you could make the current change infinitely fast, then the driver would accelerate infinitely fast, and we'd have infinite transients"

**This is where I wonder what he's smokin. Common sense tells us this isn't true to start with. Then the little matter of a cosmic speed limit 186,282 mi/sec. And as things approach this speed, F=ma does not hold true any longer. In reality, F=ma is a rough approximation, but since we never come close to the speed of light, it is good enough in most cases.

"Guess what - we just answered the original question! It turns out that transient response of a woofer is not a function of the moving mass,"

**Well, this is false on many fronts, but the first one that came to mind was he built his argument on many assumptions of linearity that he himself said was rarely the case. So, how can you say, if A=B (but not really, in reality this is rarely so unless you buy our subs) and A=C, then B=C w/o also saying this is rarely (at best) really true???

**So, following this line of logic, why not make a cone 10 tons and send 10,000,000 giga watts thru it??? You seriously think it will work? What will be it's resonant frequency? .0000001Hz??? You know, ever wonder why animals can be only so big? How about insects? Things can be only so big before they cannot function properly.

"Mass isn't the problem - inductance is."

** They are both problems, use a cast steel cone then with a huge coil and make it work!

"So if you want faster transient response, ignore that moving mass parameter that some manufacturers push - look at the inductance!"

**NO, look at both, but I prefer the mass, because as cone mass goes up, it will require a larger coil, which will require even more current. Not only have you increased the mass of the cone, but the coil too. And now you need lots more current just to make it sound right.


This guy is just trying to sell subs by taking advantage of gullible people.

 

>>http://www.adireaudio.com/tech_papers/woofer_speed.htm
>>
>>Read the above article, it will hopefully get you passed the
>>myth of a heavy cone being a bad thing.
>
>I own a "heavy" sub with a very stiff suspension. Perhaps
>you've heard of it, the Adire Brahma...
>
>If my Brahma is any indicator, heavy cones or fine. You
>just need the appropriate motor and suspension to handle the
>cone.

AND MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF CURRENT

 

LOL Tracy, I didn't see that post. Tracy's (aka Polecat) opinion is well respected on the internet.

Oh well, only a complete idiot like myself would run a 1000rms Clarion Amp to a 1600 Adire Brahma sub. I'm sure my sub will die a horrible death anyday now.

 

>On many of your 'beliefs' and post, you are wrong...I will
>not sit here and argue with them, as I am in the
>industry you argue about.

No offense, but I disagree with you.

>I am the Distribution Director for Kicker, and 5th in
>senority ad have been happily employeed here for 15
>years.I've been around car audio for quite some time, and so
>happen work with some of the larger names in car audio. Mark
>Eldridge is one, and he was a co-worker with Richard Clark.

So this mean you have PR down pretty good, got any engineering skills?

>We find no evidence that underpowering speakers is a
>cause for a premature driver loss. Like i stated in my
>earlier post, it is usually from
>a) overpowering
>b) pushing past mechanical limits

Well, hate to break this to you, but Richard Clark and geolemon said clipping an underpowered amp causes the output power to increase exponentially. Therefore, it is possible to overdrive a speaker with an underpowered amp. There is some evidence for you. You can no longer legally make those claims, since you went public.
>

>I could really care less what others might find, if so, they
>may want to look at build quality if 25 watts kills a 100w
>woofer.
>Clipping, or pushing a cheaper, smaller amp past it's
>limits, will hurt the driver. A true mis-conception that it
>was because it was underpowering.

Whatever you call it, you cannot recommend customers buy a small amp for your drivers. period. You yourself know that would result in many more drivers coming back on warranty, and that is why rbrendel was told this by the tech at your company.

>
>And other, you state that no car audio manufacture
>will warranty these such claims, you again, are wrong. We
>even ( as well as other car audio manufactures)do cover
>factory defect, customer abused subs. A majority of the ones
>turned in are customer abuse. And this is not just us, we
>have rep's that used to work for Alpine, Rockford, eclips,
>etc...so they know the industry.

Yeah, everybody trys to get away with it. No matter how the sub blew, we always just take it back and slap it on the counter and bang our fists.

>
>If you want to continue to belive that low power kills
>speakers, by all means, go ahead. But without long history
>and dat, you can't get me to swing, to that belief.

Thank you, I will continue. I don't care what you believe, you are coming to me, not I to you.

>have a nice day.

You as well, I hope you do well in all you do.

>
>Tracy Focht
>Kicker Car Audio
>www.kicker.com

 

>Oh well, only a complete idiot like myself would run a
>1000rms Clarion Amp to a 1600 Adire Brahma sub. I'm sure my
>sub will die a horrible death anyday now.

Well said, bravo! bravo!