You go Geo. That's what my years of experience with subs has taught me. It's backed but guys like Richard Clark, Dan Wiggins, Image Dynamic's techs, etc, etc, etc. 
kicker solo baric
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kicker solo baric
thylantyr, great post and great example of how underpowering can kill a sub. Doesn't really apply to RanDawg's senario though. He says he wasn't clipping because he set his gains with an O-scope. Of course the CD may not have been recorded at 0db. 
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kicker solo baric
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 10-Jan-03 AT 01:56 PM (EST)]Wow, yeah this is going on too long....I have read those links you are referencing, and they ALL indicate clipping in one form or another....MBquart doesnt work, however take the JBL .pdf file....READ THE LAST PAGE where it says "SUMMARY".....thats the point they have led to....CLIPPING.....all the other sites GENERALIZE, and say "JUST DONT DO IT, CUZ ITS BAD"....they DONT want to get back blown speakers, clipping will help do this
(create more power, which equals MORE HEAT)...(Mind you not necessarily will clipping cause this problem, but more often than not people will afford what they can....they just dont say "what the hell I'll blow a couple hundered for more power than I need, and kill my electrical system"....no they get an equal to or less than power rating than their subs....)
clipping will occur more often than not when an amp does not have enough juice to get loud enough for the uneducated listener....which will then pop the trunk, put the gain all the way up, and play bass mechanic....prior bad treatment will most likely aid in the speed of failure.....
The only thing that you are saying blows subs because of low power is that the smaller amps cant handle a stiff suspension, and heavy moving mass.....I gotta tell ya thats the speakers problem....the amp will put out whatever wattage at wathever ohm rating no more no less....it doesnt care that the sub isnt moving....it has nothing to do with damping......
(create more power, which equals MORE HEAT)...(Mind you not necessarily will clipping cause this problem, but more often than not people will afford what they can....they just dont say "what the hell I'll blow a couple hundered for more power than I need, and kill my electrical system"....no they get an equal to or less than power rating than their subs....)
clipping will occur more often than not when an amp does not have enough juice to get loud enough for the uneducated listener....which will then pop the trunk, put the gain all the way up, and play bass mechanic....prior bad treatment will most likely aid in the speed of failure.....
The only thing that you are saying blows subs because of low power is that the smaller amps cant handle a stiff suspension, and heavy moving mass.....I gotta tell ya thats the speakers problem....the amp will put out whatever wattage at wathever ohm rating no more no less....it doesnt care that the sub isnt moving....it has nothing to do with damping......
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From: south of Buffalo
kicker solo baric
>
>The question you need to ask yourself is. Do I drive my
>amplifier beyond it's performance envelope ? If so, then
>you can have problems.
>
This was my point.
If you are operating your amp within it's intended tolerances, you won't ever kill your subs.
However, if you get greedy with the gain control, trying to squeeze out a few extra watts, then what you are doing is pushing the amp not to - but BEYOND it's performance envelope.
You are clipping the amp, doing so, period.
And RanDawg, your point about sudden peaks in the music.. not valid.
A grossly clipped sudden peak that worked out to twice the RMS wattage of your sub (which, would be dramatic, if we are talking about an amp that is supposed to be UNDERpowering your subs, right?) wouldn't cause harm to your subwoofer.
Remember, RMS power is the amount of power that the sub can take continuously.. meaning the sub would never fail as long as the power averaged out to that RMS number over time.
You don't damage subs by crossing over the RMS border.. it's just that the further you do cross that line, the less time you can sustain the power before you reach thermal failure.
The point where a subwoofer would spontaniously fail from a sudden peak of high power would probably shock you, how high it generally is, relative to the RMS number... most often in excess of the peak wattage rating even!
So again, your point that running an amp that is too small, all other factors being perfect, you are seemingly straying away from then, eh?
What I am hearing is:
"People who run an amp that is too small tend to want more power than their amp can put out, and therefore can get aggressive with the gains, and therefore can cause their subs to fail"
Which I agree with wholeheartedly.
But again, the problem isn't that the amp is too small.
The amp can be too small, and as long as it is set to not clip (and I am even quite relaxed on this requirement.. let's not even get into a discussion of "proper gain setting relative to real recording levels"), you can never damage a non-defective subwoofer.
The problem in your scenario is not that the amp is too small, it's that the person tweaking the amp set it to clip.
The "too little power" didn't kill the sub, the "clipping quantity" killed the sub.
Let's put it another way...
Your claim would have to support the following experiment:
Equipment used:
Amplifier - 100 watt RMS mono amp @ 4 ohms
Subwoofer A - 4 ohm sub, rated at 100 watts RMS
Subwoofer B - 4 ohm sub, rated at 300 watts RMS
Subwoofer C - 4 ohm sub, rated at 1000 watts RMS
Each subwoofer is in a sealed enclosure that works out to a Qtc of 0.707, to take the enclosure out of the equation.
The amplifier is set up so that with the volume level of the head unit begins to clip it's RCA outputs on a 0dB level tone, the amplifier simultaniously begins to clip it's signal.
That head unit will not be turned up beyond that point for the experiment, taking user error, improper amp setting, and clipping out of the equation.
During the experiment you would swap out one subwoofer for another, nothing else in the experiment changing.
Your selection of music and/or test tones.
Your CLAIM is that:
1) you could damage the 300 watt sub connected in this setup, simply because it is receiving less power than it is rated to be able to handle.
2) you could damage the 1000 watt sub (even EASIER?), being a larger degree of "underpowering"..
3) the 100 watt subwoofer could run for years undamaged on this setup.
What we are saying is that this is untrue! This experiment would never prove out.
Put another way, if you damaged a 300 watt or 1000 watt (or whatever the sub was that you witnessed) subwoofer self destruct in a given installation...
If you swapped in a subwoofer that matched the amplifier's RMS power rating, it ALSO would have self destructed. Rather inherently faster, as well. It would not have survived where the higher power subwoofers failed.
This means that it was not the actual lower power levels that damaged the subs..
This means it was another factor... very likely clipping, trying to squeeze more power out of an amplifier that was not very hefty to begin with.
That's user error.. user trying to get more out of something than it can offer. The thing that caused the failure was the adjustments made to the amp, resulting in clipping.
>The question you need to ask yourself is. Do I drive my
>amplifier beyond it's performance envelope ? If so, then
>you can have problems.
>
This was my point.
If you are operating your amp within it's intended tolerances, you won't ever kill your subs.
However, if you get greedy with the gain control, trying to squeeze out a few extra watts, then what you are doing is pushing the amp not to - but BEYOND it's performance envelope.
You are clipping the amp, doing so, period.
And RanDawg, your point about sudden peaks in the music.. not valid.
A grossly clipped sudden peak that worked out to twice the RMS wattage of your sub (which, would be dramatic, if we are talking about an amp that is supposed to be UNDERpowering your subs, right?) wouldn't cause harm to your subwoofer.
Remember, RMS power is the amount of power that the sub can take continuously.. meaning the sub would never fail as long as the power averaged out to that RMS number over time.
You don't damage subs by crossing over the RMS border.. it's just that the further you do cross that line, the less time you can sustain the power before you reach thermal failure.
The point where a subwoofer would spontaniously fail from a sudden peak of high power would probably shock you, how high it generally is, relative to the RMS number... most often in excess of the peak wattage rating even!
So again, your point that running an amp that is too small, all other factors being perfect, you are seemingly straying away from then, eh?
What I am hearing is:
"People who run an amp that is too small tend to want more power than their amp can put out, and therefore can get aggressive with the gains, and therefore can cause their subs to fail"
Which I agree with wholeheartedly.
But again, the problem isn't that the amp is too small.
The amp can be too small, and as long as it is set to not clip (and I am even quite relaxed on this requirement.. let's not even get into a discussion of "proper gain setting relative to real recording levels"), you can never damage a non-defective subwoofer.
The problem in your scenario is not that the amp is too small, it's that the person tweaking the amp set it to clip.
The "too little power" didn't kill the sub, the "clipping quantity" killed the sub.
Let's put it another way...
Your claim would have to support the following experiment:
Equipment used:
Amplifier - 100 watt RMS mono amp @ 4 ohms
Subwoofer A - 4 ohm sub, rated at 100 watts RMS
Subwoofer B - 4 ohm sub, rated at 300 watts RMS
Subwoofer C - 4 ohm sub, rated at 1000 watts RMS
Each subwoofer is in a sealed enclosure that works out to a Qtc of 0.707, to take the enclosure out of the equation.
The amplifier is set up so that with the volume level of the head unit begins to clip it's RCA outputs on a 0dB level tone, the amplifier simultaniously begins to clip it's signal.
That head unit will not be turned up beyond that point for the experiment, taking user error, improper amp setting, and clipping out of the equation.
During the experiment you would swap out one subwoofer for another, nothing else in the experiment changing.
Your selection of music and/or test tones.
Your CLAIM is that:
1) you could damage the 300 watt sub connected in this setup, simply because it is receiving less power than it is rated to be able to handle.
2) you could damage the 1000 watt sub (even EASIER?), being a larger degree of "underpowering"..
3) the 100 watt subwoofer could run for years undamaged on this setup.
What we are saying is that this is untrue! This experiment would never prove out.
Put another way, if you damaged a 300 watt or 1000 watt (or whatever the sub was that you witnessed) subwoofer self destruct in a given installation...
If you swapped in a subwoofer that matched the amplifier's RMS power rating, it ALSO would have self destructed. Rather inherently faster, as well. It would not have survived where the higher power subwoofers failed.
This means that it was not the actual lower power levels that damaged the subs..
This means it was another factor... very likely clipping, trying to squeeze more power out of an amplifier that was not very hefty to begin with.
That's user error.. user trying to get more out of something than it can offer. The thing that caused the failure was the adjustments made to the amp, resulting in clipping.
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kicker solo baric
Let me again stress that point, because I think that concisely captures what I was trying to say above:
If you witnessed a subwoofer fail in a given installation where the amplifier was rated at dramatically less power than the RMS rating of the sub...
And without making any adjustments at all to any equipment in the car (same gain levels, same volume levels, same music/tones being played), you swapped in a smaller subwoofer, with RMS power ratings that matched the amplifier exactly, in the same type and tuning enclosure (and same size ratio of the sub's VAS to the enclosure's Vb), this subwoofer would also have failed.. and in fact failed faster.
This is because it wasn't the fact that the sub was being 'underpowered' that killed it.
And again, this is inherently true, the volume correlation is correct... if you run your volume at half of the max-before-clipping reference volume level, the amp will simply put out about half the power than it was putting out at maximum unclipped levels.
I like this quote from one of the guys on the car audio forums:
"I guess we can use his logic to fight the noise laws since we can no longer turn down our speakers, we can only play them at their RMS rating"
If you witnessed a subwoofer fail in a given installation where the amplifier was rated at dramatically less power than the RMS rating of the sub...
And without making any adjustments at all to any equipment in the car (same gain levels, same volume levels, same music/tones being played), you swapped in a smaller subwoofer, with RMS power ratings that matched the amplifier exactly, in the same type and tuning enclosure (and same size ratio of the sub's VAS to the enclosure's Vb), this subwoofer would also have failed.. and in fact failed faster.
This is because it wasn't the fact that the sub was being 'underpowered' that killed it.
And again, this is inherently true, the volume correlation is correct... if you run your volume at half of the max-before-clipping reference volume level, the amp will simply put out about half the power than it was putting out at maximum unclipped levels.
I like this quote from one of the guys on the car audio forums:
"I guess we can use his logic to fight the noise laws since we can no longer turn down our speakers, we can only play them at their RMS rating"
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From: south of Buffalo
kicker solo baric
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 01-10-03 AT 06:20 PM (EST)]We manufacture a subwoofer that is rated at 1,600 watts, RMS, thermally...
Imagine if we could only sell this subwoofer to people with 1,600 watt amplifiers!
Reality is, my company co-founder has been running one of our prototypes on a JL 500/1, and it's nearly ideal in a slightly larger enclosure.. still not a large box.
500 watts is a good amount of power, 1,600 watts is a monsterous amount of power. The sub is great on even 400 watts of power - in fact what do you gain by quadrupling the power? Potentially not even 3dB, not even double the excursion, as you might reach the suspension limits sooner (depending on enclosure.. of course, right?).
Remember, it takes approximately a quadrupling of power to double the excursion level reached by the subwoofer...
And it takes a doubling of excursion level to effect a doubling of output (3dB gain).
Also..
For 7 years (I bought them their first year of production) I ran a trio of JL Audio 10W6's on my Alpine MRV-1000 (also first year product, first year of the V12 series). The 10W6's were in a ported enclosure (about 4.5 cu.ft. total, tuned at 32Hz), like your 12W6 was.
My JL 10W6's were rated at 300 watts RMS per sub, for a total of 900 watts powerhandling RMS.
For 7 years, I ran those three subs on the MRV1000... the MRV1000 is a 100x2 amplifier, 400 watts bridged mono.
400 watts to subs that could handle 900.
7 years no problems.
Here are some pictures I took early this summer, while I still had this gear installed, making an upgrade:
http://www.teamcaf.org/geolemon/trunkrack/
7 years old at that point, the subs and the amps.
What do you propose that I did to prevent critical failure, despite my delivering less than half the RMS power to my subs, to get them to last for 7 years?
Imagine if we could only sell this subwoofer to people with 1,600 watt amplifiers!
Reality is, my company co-founder has been running one of our prototypes on a JL 500/1, and it's nearly ideal in a slightly larger enclosure.. still not a large box.
500 watts is a good amount of power, 1,600 watts is a monsterous amount of power. The sub is great on even 400 watts of power - in fact what do you gain by quadrupling the power? Potentially not even 3dB, not even double the excursion, as you might reach the suspension limits sooner (depending on enclosure.. of course, right?).
Remember, it takes approximately a quadrupling of power to double the excursion level reached by the subwoofer...
And it takes a doubling of excursion level to effect a doubling of output (3dB gain).
Also..
For 7 years (I bought them their first year of production) I ran a trio of JL Audio 10W6's on my Alpine MRV-1000 (also first year product, first year of the V12 series). The 10W6's were in a ported enclosure (about 4.5 cu.ft. total, tuned at 32Hz), like your 12W6 was.
My JL 10W6's were rated at 300 watts RMS per sub, for a total of 900 watts powerhandling RMS.
For 7 years, I ran those three subs on the MRV1000... the MRV1000 is a 100x2 amplifier, 400 watts bridged mono.
400 watts to subs that could handle 900.
7 years no problems.
Here are some pictures I took early this summer, while I still had this gear installed, making an upgrade:
http://www.teamcaf.org/geolemon/trunkrack/
7 years old at that point, the subs and the amps.
What do you propose that I did to prevent critical failure, despite my delivering less than half the RMS power to my subs, to get them to last for 7 years?
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kicker solo baric
Passed this link by a friend.
Here's a document I summed up on this very discussion:
http://www.welcometotheden.8k.com/caraudio/clipping.PDF
Nope. Clipping will not harm speakers. Its a myth. Pushed into the mainstream back in the early 70's by JBL and followed blindly decades to come.
The links of the other manufactures with their documentation still stating underpowering hurts....they don't want to rock the boat. Or they have people just like you and me in their tech writing departments who don't know any better (which I would assume be the case).
Here's a document I summed up on this very discussion:
http://www.welcometotheden.8k.com/caraudio/clipping.PDF
Nope. Clipping will not harm speakers. Its a myth. Pushed into the mainstream back in the early 70's by JBL and followed blindly decades to come.
The links of the other manufactures with their documentation still stating underpowering hurts....they don't want to rock the boat. Or they have people just like you and me in their tech writing departments who don't know any better (which I would assume be the case).
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kicker solo baric
haha this is ridiculous. ive never seen so many "new users" pop up at one time. its probably the same person. face it yall are wrong. underpowering can kill a speaker. why dont you ask somebody who knows, like the engineers at kicker etc. yall have no evidence or links to prove anything, just your opinions. show me some written proof from a subwoofer manufacturer and i will believe it. randawg has displayed many links including one from crutchfield. im sure of it that they would not put false information on their website as they are a huge store. im glad you backing up your friend but its not going anywhere. yall are wrong just admit it. theres been concrete evidence shown which yall have none of. show me some please, o wait you cant find any. and dont try to make your own either.
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kicker solo baric
>Passed this link by a friend.
>
>Here's a document I summed up on this very discussion:
>
>http://www.welcometotheden.8k.com/caraudio/clipping.PDF
>
>
>Nope. Clipping will not harm speakers. Its a myth. Pushed
>into the mainstream back in the early 70's by JBL and
>followed blindly decades to come.
>
>The links of the other manufactures with their documentation
>still stating underpowering hurts....they don't want to rock
>the boat. Or they have people just like you and me in their
>tech writing departments who don't know any better (which I
>would assume be the case).
haha what makes you smarter than the thousands of engineers who develop subwoofers? to make such a claim is stupid. they know alot more than you,me, and everybody else on this site. is it just a coincident that the main manufacturers all have the same so called "opinion." please explain that. when you can post something worth it. your out numbered give up! any further discussion on yall's part about the underpowering of subwoofers is just ignorant and does not matter. the FACTS were stated your OPINIONS are obselete. i just wrote a letter to kicker asking for the technical information. i will post that and hopefully get this thread locked.
>
>Here's a document I summed up on this very discussion:
>
>http://www.welcometotheden.8k.com/caraudio/clipping.PDF
>
>
>Nope. Clipping will not harm speakers. Its a myth. Pushed
>into the mainstream back in the early 70's by JBL and
>followed blindly decades to come.
>
>The links of the other manufactures with their documentation
>still stating underpowering hurts....they don't want to rock
>the boat. Or they have people just like you and me in their
>tech writing departments who don't know any better (which I
>would assume be the case).
haha what makes you smarter than the thousands of engineers who develop subwoofers? to make such a claim is stupid. they know alot more than you,me, and everybody else on this site. is it just a coincident that the main manufacturers all have the same so called "opinion." please explain that. when you can post something worth it. your out numbered give up! any further discussion on yall's part about the underpowering of subwoofers is just ignorant and does not matter. the FACTS were stated your OPINIONS are obselete. i just wrote a letter to kicker asking for the technical information. i will post that and hopefully get this thread locked.
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kicker solo baric
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 01-10-03 AT 09:10 PM (EST)]I haven't seen a fact listed by randawg yet.
He claimed that too little power is a bad thing. Essentially, he said that a 200w amp putting out 200w will not control a sub properly, but a 600w amp with the volume turned down so it is producing 200w will control a sub despite sending the SAME amount of power. The claim was that the 600w amp, despite only producing 200w, will have a higher damping factor than the 200w. DF and power have no correlation WHATSOEVER! A 1 watt amp and a 20000w amp can have the same DF. DF is simply a ratio of load impedance to output impedance.
He claimed that too little power is a bad thing. Essentially, he said that a 200w amp putting out 200w will not control a sub properly, but a 600w amp with the volume turned down so it is producing 200w will control a sub despite sending the SAME amount of power. The claim was that the 600w amp, despite only producing 200w, will have a higher damping factor than the 200w. DF and power have no correlation WHATSOEVER! A 1 watt amp and a 20000w amp can have the same DF. DF is simply a ratio of load impedance to output impedance.
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From: south of Buffalo
kicker solo baric
>
>Essentially, he said that a 200w amp putting out 200w will
>not control a sub properly, but a 600w amp with the volume
>turned down so it is producing 200w will control an sub
>despite sending the SAME amount of power. The claim was
>that the 600w amp, despite only producing 200w, will have a
>higher damping factor...
> DF is simply a ratio of load impedance to
>output impedance.
>
Classic, and again amusing...
He certainly has failed to respond to my posts above, as well...
(I don't blame him, his veil is thin)
Hello, McFly..
>Essentially, he said that a 200w amp putting out 200w will
>not control a sub properly, but a 600w amp with the volume
>turned down so it is producing 200w will control an sub
>despite sending the SAME amount of power. The claim was
>that the 600w amp, despite only producing 200w, will have a
>higher damping factor...
> DF is simply a ratio of load impedance to
>output impedance.
>
Classic, and again amusing...
He certainly has failed to respond to my posts above, as well...
(I don't blame him, his veil is thin)
Hello, McFly..
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kicker solo baric
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 01-10-03 AT 09:31 PM (EST)]excuse me, you still havent shown any proof. and you think for one minute that im going to listen to some guy at adireaudio or some crap site? its just one of those bogus "companies" that send you refurbished products and steal your money. guess what? im only 17 years old. im still in high school, but i know enough to conclude that you are full of *****. your beating a dead horse buddy. you have no proof your case if done. how could you say you know more than the entire subwoofer industry? thats just absurd. just because you said it does not mean its right. please state your degrees and qualifications to go against the sound industry. believe whatever you believe but keep it to yourself. and if your that passionate about your opinions go public. im sorry im not "technically sound" to discuss this topic, but im far from stupid and know crap when i hear it. back down, you have NOTHING. just like how you can't sue somebody and expect the judge to on your word. you need proof, your friends arent proof. 
hmmm no CREDIBLE sources, thats what i thought.
hmmm no CREDIBLE sources, thats what i thought.
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kicker solo baric
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 01-10-03 AT 09:35 PM (EST)]>excuse me, you still havent shown any proof. and you think
>for one minute that im going to listen to some guy at
>adireaudio or some crap site?
What more proof do we need to show? We have defined DF and proven that it isn't related to power, in fact, randawgs posts about DF will not mention power. Read them. Adire Audio is one of the most respect audio companies going right now. David Hyre is a certifiable genius and Dan Wiggins are extremely knowledgeable and overwhelmingly helpful. They aren't a crap company trying to rip people off, quite the opposite. If you were to even attempt to click on the link, you may learn something instead of hanging off randawgs jock.
>its just one of those bogus
>"companies" that send you refurbished products and steal
>your money.
The steal your money in trade for some of the best and most affordable audio equipment in the industry.
>guess what? im only 17 years old. im still in
>high school,
I'm not too surprised by that. I admire your enthusiasm however misguided it may be.
>but i know enough to conclude that you are full
>of *****.
Wrong again, I am on the toilet as I type. I am only partially full of #####.
>your beating a dead horse buddy. you have no proof
>your case if done. how could you say you know more than the
>entire subwoofer industry?
I'm not. The people who design subs agree with me.
thats just absurd. just because
>you said it does not mean its right. please state your
>degrees
98.6
>and qualifications
I have a degree and a stack of books on a shelf.
>to go against the sound industry.
>believe whatever you believe but keep it to yourself.
If you like to be misled, you are heading down the right path.
>and if
>your that passionate about your opinions go public.
no need.
im sorry
>im not "technically sound" to discuss this topic, but im far
>from stupid and know crap when i hear it. back down, you
>have NOTHING.
just like how you can't sue somebody and
>expect the judge to on your word. you need proof, your
>friends arent proof.
What kind of proof are you looking for?
>for one minute that im going to listen to some guy at
>adireaudio or some crap site?
What more proof do we need to show? We have defined DF and proven that it isn't related to power, in fact, randawgs posts about DF will not mention power. Read them. Adire Audio is one of the most respect audio companies going right now. David Hyre is a certifiable genius and Dan Wiggins are extremely knowledgeable and overwhelmingly helpful. They aren't a crap company trying to rip people off, quite the opposite. If you were to even attempt to click on the link, you may learn something instead of hanging off randawgs jock.
>its just one of those bogus
>"companies" that send you refurbished products and steal
>your money.
The steal your money in trade for some of the best and most affordable audio equipment in the industry.
>guess what? im only 17 years old. im still in
>high school,
I'm not too surprised by that. I admire your enthusiasm however misguided it may be.
>but i know enough to conclude that you are full
>of *****.
Wrong again, I am on the toilet as I type. I am only partially full of #####.
>your beating a dead horse buddy. you have no proof
>your case if done. how could you say you know more than the
>entire subwoofer industry?
I'm not. The people who design subs agree with me.
thats just absurd. just because
>you said it does not mean its right. please state your
>degrees
98.6
>and qualifications
I have a degree and a stack of books on a shelf.
>to go against the sound industry.
>believe whatever you believe but keep it to yourself.
If you like to be misled, you are heading down the right path.
>and if
>your that passionate about your opinions go public.
no need.
im sorry
>im not "technically sound" to discuss this topic, but im far
>from stupid and know crap when i hear it. back down, you
>have NOTHING.
just like how you can't sue somebody and
>expect the judge to on your word. you need proof, your
>friends arent proof.
What kind of proof are you looking for?
New User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
From: Saskatoon Canada
kicker solo baric
>excuse me, you still havent shown any proof. and you think
>for one minute that im going to listen to some guy at
>adireaudio or some crap site? its just one of those bogus
>"companies" that send you refurbished products and steal
>your money. guess what? im only 17 years old. im still in
>high school, but i know enough to conclude that you are full
>of *****. your beating a dead horse buddy. you have no proof
>your case if done. how could you say you know more than the
>entire subwoofer industry? thats just absurd. just because
>you said it does not mean its right. please state your
>degrees and qualifications to go against the sound industry.
>believe whatever you believe but keep it to yourself. and if
>your that passionate about your opinions go public. im sorry
>im not "technically sound" to discuss this topic, but im far
>from stupid and know crap when i hear it. back down, you
>have NOTHING. just like how you can't sue somebody and
>expect the judge to on your word. you need proof, your
>friends arent proof.
I have a better idea, why don't you follow your own advice and keep your comments to yourself? You have absolutely no clue whatsoever. You are even more out of your league here than I am so shut it. At least I'm the funniest person alive, you just sound like an idiot. I mean really, you actually type out the word "y'all" in some of your posts.
You also call Adire Audio "some crap site" I'm guessing you have a car full of some overpriced popular name brand garbage that Adire Audio's product would easily decimate at a lower price.
Bedtime for you little boy
>for one minute that im going to listen to some guy at
>adireaudio or some crap site? its just one of those bogus
>"companies" that send you refurbished products and steal
>your money. guess what? im only 17 years old. im still in
>high school, but i know enough to conclude that you are full
>of *****. your beating a dead horse buddy. you have no proof
>your case if done. how could you say you know more than the
>entire subwoofer industry? thats just absurd. just because
>you said it does not mean its right. please state your
>degrees and qualifications to go against the sound industry.
>believe whatever you believe but keep it to yourself. and if
>your that passionate about your opinions go public. im sorry
>im not "technically sound" to discuss this topic, but im far
>from stupid and know crap when i hear it. back down, you
>have NOTHING. just like how you can't sue somebody and
>expect the judge to on your word. you need proof, your
>friends arent proof.
I have a better idea, why don't you follow your own advice and keep your comments to yourself? You have absolutely no clue whatsoever. You are even more out of your league here than I am so shut it. At least I'm the funniest person alive, you just sound like an idiot. I mean really, you actually type out the word "y'all" in some of your posts.
You also call Adire Audio "some crap site" I'm guessing you have a car full of some overpriced popular name brand garbage that Adire Audio's product would easily decimate at a lower price.
Bedtime for you little boy
Posting Guru
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 1,149
Likes: 0
kicker solo baric
>
.
>
>>guess what? im only 17 years old. im still in
>>high school,
>
>I'm not too surprised by that. I admire your enthusiasm
>however misguided it may be.
so i guess the whole audio industry is misguided?? i dont think so
>
>>your beating a dead horse buddy. you have no proof
>>your case if done. how could you say you know more than the
>>entire subwoofer industry?
>
>I'm not. The people who design subs agree with me.
uh no they don't check out the links discussed earlier. only you adire crap agrees with you. by the way, someone needs to redo that website it does not look very professional.
>
>>and qualifications
>
>I have a degree and a stack of books on a shelf.
name the degree, what school you got it from and when.
>
>>to go against the sound industry.
>>believe whatever you believe but keep it to yourself.
>
>If you like to be misled, you are heading down the right
>path.
what's next? are squirrels going to take over the world?
>>and if
>>your that passionate about your opinions go public.
>
>no need.
really, im still puzzled that the manufacturers themselves disagree with you.
>
> just like how you can't sue somebody and
>>expect the judge to on your word. you need proof, your
>>friends arent proof.
>
>What kind of proof are you looking for?
some evidence from a large corporation, not a home ran product line. your cheap websites don't even match up to the links that were up earlier. find something even worthy to compare and i will listen.