kicker solo baric
Elder User
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 594
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kicker solo baric
>A quote from Dan Wiggins....
>
>Hi all,
>Power is power. The speaker doesn't know if it's clipped,
>clean, or what. It knows there is power.
Correct, this is why a speaker can continue to move in one direction, due to momentum, while the signal is telling it to move in the opposite direction. If the power is not sufficient to stop the movement (forward) of the cone and reverse its travel before the next signal comes telling it to go forward again, it MAY receive mechanical or electrical failure.
>One thing to correct - a clipped signal does NOT create DC;
Correct.
>this is an oft-repeated myth that should be eliminated. When
>you clip a signal, you actually INCREASE the HIGH frequency
>content! DC would be the opposite - removal of high
>frequency signal content.
>In fact, the ultimate clipped signal would be strikingly
>similar to a square wave. A square wave is nothing more than
>a set of harmonically related sine waves - there is no DC
>component present. It is all AC.
>This is, in fact, why clipped amps are literally murder on
>tweeters. Clipped signals contain much more high frequency
>energy than unclipped signals. This is readily passed by the
>high pass filter of the tweeter, and means the tweeter can
>receive 2-10X as much power as anticipated, and quickly
>blows out.
This is why I stress having a lot of power for tweeters. Each tweeter I run has a dedicated amp that can exceed the rated power of the tweeter by a good margin.
>Anyway, too much power - clipped or unclipped - is what
>kills speakers. You can toast an speaker with clean or
>clipped signals. Just give it too much power.
Heat and mechanical failures are among the things that can kill speakers.
>
>Hi all,
>Power is power. The speaker doesn't know if it's clipped,
>clean, or what. It knows there is power.
Correct, this is why a speaker can continue to move in one direction, due to momentum, while the signal is telling it to move in the opposite direction. If the power is not sufficient to stop the movement (forward) of the cone and reverse its travel before the next signal comes telling it to go forward again, it MAY receive mechanical or electrical failure.
>One thing to correct - a clipped signal does NOT create DC;
Correct.
>this is an oft-repeated myth that should be eliminated. When
>you clip a signal, you actually INCREASE the HIGH frequency
>content! DC would be the opposite - removal of high
>frequency signal content.
>In fact, the ultimate clipped signal would be strikingly
>similar to a square wave. A square wave is nothing more than
>a set of harmonically related sine waves - there is no DC
>component present. It is all AC.
>This is, in fact, why clipped amps are literally murder on
>tweeters. Clipped signals contain much more high frequency
>energy than unclipped signals. This is readily passed by the
>high pass filter of the tweeter, and means the tweeter can
>receive 2-10X as much power as anticipated, and quickly
>blows out.
This is why I stress having a lot of power for tweeters. Each tweeter I run has a dedicated amp that can exceed the rated power of the tweeter by a good margin.
>Anyway, too much power - clipped or unclipped - is what
>kills speakers. You can toast an speaker with clean or
>clipped signals. Just give it too much power.
Heat and mechanical failures are among the things that can kill speakers.
Junior User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
kicker solo baric
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 01-11-03 AT 00:24 AM (EST)]>Correct, this is why a speaker can continue to move in one >direction, due to momentum, while the signal is telling it to move >in the opposite direction. If the power is not sufficient to stop >the movement (forward) of the cone and reverse its travel before the >next signal comes telling it to go forward again, it MAY receive >mechanical or electrical failure.
If the motor/suspension of the driver was insufficient to control the motion of the sub, which is what you are describing, it would have problems with 1w, 10w, 200w, or 1000w. IOW, regardless of power provided, it would have issues. Power does not effect DF.
If the motor/suspension of the driver was insufficient to control the motion of the sub, which is what you are describing, it would have problems with 1w, 10w, 200w, or 1000w. IOW, regardless of power provided, it would have issues. Power does not effect DF.
Elder User
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 594
Likes: 0
kicker solo baric
>If the motor/suspension of the driver was insufficient to
>control the motion of the sub, which is what you are
>describing, it would have problems with 1w, 10w, 200w, or
>1000w. IOW, regardless of power provided, it would have
>issues. Power does not effect DF.
The suspension is not solely responsible, also, if not for the amp, the speaker would continue to oscillate a bit after the signal ended. There are no gasrider struts on speakers you know.
By the way, can I count on seeing these papers posted on RC's site?
If so, I will arrange to have an independent physicist review them.
>control the motion of the sub, which is what you are
>describing, it would have problems with 1w, 10w, 200w, or
>1000w. IOW, regardless of power provided, it would have
>issues. Power does not effect DF.
The suspension is not solely responsible, also, if not for the amp, the speaker would continue to oscillate a bit after the signal ended. There are no gasrider struts on speakers you know.
By the way, can I count on seeing these papers posted on RC's site?
If so, I will arrange to have an independent physicist review them.
Junior User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
kicker solo baric
"The suspension is not solely responsible, also, if not for the amp, the speaker would continue to oscillate a bit after the signal ended. There are no gasrider struts on speakers you know."
That is why I also mentioned the electrical damping properties which are normally a great deal stronger than the mechanical damping properties.
That is why I also mentioned the electrical damping properties which are normally a great deal stronger than the mechanical damping properties.
Junior User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
From: south of Buffalo
kicker solo baric
>
>Correct, this is why a speaker can continue to move in one
>direction, due to momentum, while the signal is telling it
>to move in the opposite direction. If the power is not
>sufficient to stop the movement (forward) of the cone and
>reverse its travel before the next signal comes telling it
>to go forward again, it MAY receive mechanical or electrical
>failure.
>
This is impossible in so many ways.
Period.
I actually didn't realize you had this level of unfamiliaratity with the way that a subwoofer operates, the actual fundamentals...
First off, the suspension of the subwoofer will pull a subwoofer back to center if a signal is suddenly eliminated.
If you push on a subwoofer with your hand, and remove it, it springs back to the "at rest" position. No power needed.
But that isn't even necessary in this discussion... just a sort of "safety net" a statement of "no matter what else failed, this would prevent problems"
So...
Important: If the subwoofer doesn't have a large amount of power to begin with (less than RMS in this discussion), it doesn't have enough momentum to carry itself outside of Xmax.
And as long as the subwoofer is operating within Xmax, this means the coil is still pleasantly inside the magnetic gap.
Which means no matter how small the voltage, clean or unclean, the coil will control the motion of the cone, it will emulate what the voltage being fed into it is doing.
Again, this is just like operating at a low volume level.
We need to obviously venture into how a subwoofer works.
Fundamentals, but necessary as there is a very obvious lack of knowlege on the subject here in this particular forum!
The top plate of a subwoofer is charged with magnetically "north" energy.. the top of the magnet stack is one magnetic pole. The bottom plate of the subwoofer is charged with magnetically "south" energy, the other magnetic pole. The backplate isn't as simple as it looks... neither is the magnet.
The top plate and magnets aren't solid, they are rings, hollow inside the subwoofer.
The back plate has a pole piece that extends back up into the subwoofer, at least as far as the top plate. Often there's a hole drilled all the way through it, the vent.. you can see how far up it extends.
The pole piece is likewise charged with magnetically "south" energy.
Being immediately adjacent to the top plate, there is a very strong magnetic field between the pole piece (magnetic south) and the top plate (magnetic north).
The voice coil is simply a coil of wire wrapped around a tube.
The tube fits over the pole piece, and inside the top plate's ring, without touching either.
The subwoofer is fed an AC electricity of varying frequency.
If it were fed test tones, they would be pure sine waves. Music is just complex in that it is many waves.
It's simple to visualize the sine wave, representing the phase angle of the alternating current.
The voice coil, being an inductive coil, will generate a magnetic field...
When the current is moving in one direction (the upper "peaks" on the sine wave), the magnetic "north" will be toward the dustcap, the magnetic "south" will be toward the back plate, and the subwoofer will move OUT.
When the current is moving fully in the other direction (the lower "dips" in the sine wave), the magnetic "north" will be toward the back plate, and the subwoofer will again operate against the magnetic field of the top plate/pole piece to move IN.
When the current passes through the center line, effectively there is no magnetic force either pulling or pushing on the cone.
However, if you follow a sine wave throughout it's cycle, it's easy to see how the magnetic force will guide the cone:
From at rest, magnetic force begins to build pushing the cone out...
Out out out out...
As you get to the peak of the sine wave, the current begins to change direction.. so your "out" goes "out" slower and slower until you cross over the peak, then the magnetic force grows weaker and weaker, the cone begins heading back to the at rest position...
In in in in...
Until you get back to the at rest position.. but the current begins pulling in the downward direction...
In in in in..
As you get to the dip of the sine wave, the current begins to change direction again... until you cross the dip and the sine wave begins to head up again.. magenetic force grows weaker and the cone begins heading back to the at rest position...
And at that point, you completed one complete cycle, one wave..
The cycles repeat and repeat!
Important concepts that you obviously aren't aware of:
Amplitude.
The amplitude of the sine wave is proportional to the motion of the cone. The amplitude is the voltage.
If you have not reached the excursion limits of the subwoofer (low amplitude = low voltage = low power, ie. less than RMS), the coil will always control the cone motion, because all the coils are suspended in the magnetic gap, they are capable of pushing and pulling on the cone FULLY effectively, regardless of power level.
Also worthy of mention, if you are talking about such low voltage levels that the voice coil can't pull the cone back...
Well, it also wouldn't have been able to push the cone out either.
So, the cone would be just sitting there at rest, no risk of damage at all.. the voltage would be so low at that point the thing wouldn't be seeing hardly a volt, no heat.
The voice coil ALWAYS has just as much "pull" as it does "push"..
In fact no more, no less, by nature.
This being the case, if it can control the cone to push it OUT, it can control the cone to push it IN.
Always.
One thought that needs to be covered for completeness (and it's the only one that could lead to any damage in this less-than-RMS scenario):
If you DO exceed the excursion limits of the subwoofer on less than the RMS power rating (possible in a large, high tuned enclosure, or free air, etc..), what happens is the coils leave the magnetic gap for a moment at the top and bottom of the cycle. At that point, they lose their "push" and "pull" abilities, the voice coil just has fringe-field magnetic fields to operate against.
So this would inherently have some slowing down of the voice coil.
It is very possible at HIGH POWER levels to just launch the cone back and forth, right through and again out of the magnetic gap, which could send the voice coil colliding with the back plate, causing damage, but...
1) that happens at high power levels
and
2) if that happens at lower than RMS power levels (no doubt possible in the right enclosure), then it would happen even worse at higher power levels...
The culprit again, NOT the fact that you had too little power.
Phew...
Now do you at least understand how a subwoofer works, RanDawg?
>Correct, this is why a speaker can continue to move in one
>direction, due to momentum, while the signal is telling it
>to move in the opposite direction. If the power is not
>sufficient to stop the movement (forward) of the cone and
>reverse its travel before the next signal comes telling it
>to go forward again, it MAY receive mechanical or electrical
>failure.
>
This is impossible in so many ways.
Period.
I actually didn't realize you had this level of unfamiliaratity with the way that a subwoofer operates, the actual fundamentals...
First off, the suspension of the subwoofer will pull a subwoofer back to center if a signal is suddenly eliminated.
If you push on a subwoofer with your hand, and remove it, it springs back to the "at rest" position. No power needed.
But that isn't even necessary in this discussion... just a sort of "safety net" a statement of "no matter what else failed, this would prevent problems"
So...
Important: If the subwoofer doesn't have a large amount of power to begin with (less than RMS in this discussion), it doesn't have enough momentum to carry itself outside of Xmax.
And as long as the subwoofer is operating within Xmax, this means the coil is still pleasantly inside the magnetic gap.
Which means no matter how small the voltage, clean or unclean, the coil will control the motion of the cone, it will emulate what the voltage being fed into it is doing.
Again, this is just like operating at a low volume level.
We need to obviously venture into how a subwoofer works.
Fundamentals, but necessary as there is a very obvious lack of knowlege on the subject here in this particular forum!
The top plate of a subwoofer is charged with magnetically "north" energy.. the top of the magnet stack is one magnetic pole. The bottom plate of the subwoofer is charged with magnetically "south" energy, the other magnetic pole. The backplate isn't as simple as it looks... neither is the magnet.
The top plate and magnets aren't solid, they are rings, hollow inside the subwoofer.
The back plate has a pole piece that extends back up into the subwoofer, at least as far as the top plate. Often there's a hole drilled all the way through it, the vent.. you can see how far up it extends.
The pole piece is likewise charged with magnetically "south" energy.
Being immediately adjacent to the top plate, there is a very strong magnetic field between the pole piece (magnetic south) and the top plate (magnetic north).
The voice coil is simply a coil of wire wrapped around a tube.
The tube fits over the pole piece, and inside the top plate's ring, without touching either.
The subwoofer is fed an AC electricity of varying frequency.
If it were fed test tones, they would be pure sine waves. Music is just complex in that it is many waves.
It's simple to visualize the sine wave, representing the phase angle of the alternating current.
The voice coil, being an inductive coil, will generate a magnetic field...
When the current is moving in one direction (the upper "peaks" on the sine wave), the magnetic "north" will be toward the dustcap, the magnetic "south" will be toward the back plate, and the subwoofer will move OUT.
When the current is moving fully in the other direction (the lower "dips" in the sine wave), the magnetic "north" will be toward the back plate, and the subwoofer will again operate against the magnetic field of the top plate/pole piece to move IN.
When the current passes through the center line, effectively there is no magnetic force either pulling or pushing on the cone.
However, if you follow a sine wave throughout it's cycle, it's easy to see how the magnetic force will guide the cone:
From at rest, magnetic force begins to build pushing the cone out...
Out out out out...
As you get to the peak of the sine wave, the current begins to change direction.. so your "out" goes "out" slower and slower until you cross over the peak, then the magnetic force grows weaker and weaker, the cone begins heading back to the at rest position...
In in in in...
Until you get back to the at rest position.. but the current begins pulling in the downward direction...
In in in in..
As you get to the dip of the sine wave, the current begins to change direction again... until you cross the dip and the sine wave begins to head up again.. magenetic force grows weaker and the cone begins heading back to the at rest position...
And at that point, you completed one complete cycle, one wave..
The cycles repeat and repeat!
Important concepts that you obviously aren't aware of:
Amplitude.
The amplitude of the sine wave is proportional to the motion of the cone. The amplitude is the voltage.
If you have not reached the excursion limits of the subwoofer (low amplitude = low voltage = low power, ie. less than RMS), the coil will always control the cone motion, because all the coils are suspended in the magnetic gap, they are capable of pushing and pulling on the cone FULLY effectively, regardless of power level.
Also worthy of mention, if you are talking about such low voltage levels that the voice coil can't pull the cone back...
Well, it also wouldn't have been able to push the cone out either.
So, the cone would be just sitting there at rest, no risk of damage at all.. the voltage would be so low at that point the thing wouldn't be seeing hardly a volt, no heat.
The voice coil ALWAYS has just as much "pull" as it does "push"..
In fact no more, no less, by nature.
This being the case, if it can control the cone to push it OUT, it can control the cone to push it IN.
Always.
One thought that needs to be covered for completeness (and it's the only one that could lead to any damage in this less-than-RMS scenario):
If you DO exceed the excursion limits of the subwoofer on less than the RMS power rating (possible in a large, high tuned enclosure, or free air, etc..), what happens is the coils leave the magnetic gap for a moment at the top and bottom of the cycle. At that point, they lose their "push" and "pull" abilities, the voice coil just has fringe-field magnetic fields to operate against.
So this would inherently have some slowing down of the voice coil.
It is very possible at HIGH POWER levels to just launch the cone back and forth, right through and again out of the magnetic gap, which could send the voice coil colliding with the back plate, causing damage, but...
1) that happens at high power levels
and
2) if that happens at lower than RMS power levels (no doubt possible in the right enclosure), then it would happen even worse at higher power levels...
The culprit again, NOT the fact that you had too little power.
Phew...
Now do you at least understand how a subwoofer works, RanDawg?
Elder User
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 594
Likes: 0
kicker solo baric
>If you send me an email address, I will arrange it.
Why would you need an email address to go public with your claims?
After all, it is not me you are seeking to convince, it is also the generally accepted audio engineering community.
Posting a link should not be too hard, in light of your passion to change the world.
Why would you need an email address to go public with your claims?
After all, it is not me you are seeking to convince, it is also the generally accepted audio engineering community.
Posting a link should not be too hard, in light of your passion to change the world.
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Elder User
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 594
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kicker solo baric
>"The suspension is not solely responsible, also, if not for
>the amp, the speaker would continue to oscillate a bit after
>the signal ended. There are no gasrider struts on speakers
>you know."
>
>That is why I also mentioned the electrical damping
>properties which are normally a great deal stronger than the
>mechanical damping properties.
Well, there you go. You have just proven my point for me.
Now, either form a new argument or publish what RC has to say or concede.
>the amp, the speaker would continue to oscillate a bit after
>the signal ended. There are no gasrider struts on speakers
>you know."
>
>That is why I also mentioned the electrical damping
>properties which are normally a great deal stronger than the
>mechanical damping properties.
Well, there you go. You have just proven my point for me.
Now, either form a new argument or publish what RC has to say or concede.
Junior User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
From: south of Buffalo
kicker solo baric
RanDawg...
Is the reason that you don't respond to my posts out of fear of looking foolish for your standpoints thus far...
Or is it simply because you agree and don't have the pride to admit it?
Is the reason that you don't respond to my posts out of fear of looking foolish for your standpoints thus far...
Or is it simply because you agree and don't have the pride to admit it?
Junior User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 52
Likes: 0
kicker solo baric
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 01-11-03 AT 01:07 AM (EST)]>>"The suspension is not solely responsible, also, if not for
>>the amp, the speaker would continue to oscillate a bit after
>>the signal ended. There are no gasrider struts on speakers
>>you know."
>>
>>That is why I also mentioned the electrical damping
>>properties which are normally a great deal stronger than the
>>mechanical damping properties.
>
>
>Well, there you go. You have just proven my point for me.
>Now, either form a new argument or publish what RC has to
>say or concede.
Please explain? When I speak of electrical damping, I am referring to Qes. Not the power being provided.
RC owns a business that sells the information he has researched. I will not publish it as that would be copyright infringement. He is willing to send you a copy for free for personal review if you would only just give me your email address. Now give me the email address or concede....
>>the amp, the speaker would continue to oscillate a bit after
>>the signal ended. There are no gasrider struts on speakers
>>you know."
>>
>>That is why I also mentioned the electrical damping
>>properties which are normally a great deal stronger than the
>>mechanical damping properties.
>
>
>Well, there you go. You have just proven my point for me.
>Now, either form a new argument or publish what RC has to
>say or concede.
Please explain? When I speak of electrical damping, I am referring to Qes. Not the power being provided.
RC owns a business that sells the information he has researched. I will not publish it as that would be copyright infringement. He is willing to send you a copy for free for personal review if you would only just give me your email address. Now give me the email address or concede....
New User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
kicker solo baric
>my god! am i bad since i never heard of adire? i have heard
>of the others though. and yes i know pyramid and legacy is
>crap. 100 bucks for 2000 thousand watts isnt the best
>quality.(jensen is crap also) ask optikal about it. o and by
>the way im so intimidated by the whole audio world laughing
>at me on the internet haha. i am letting the new info in and
>exploring new ideas, i may change sides but i would like to
>see further argument.
Excellent is good to see that you're willing to look at the other side. Too bad RanDawg isn't. If the simple logic of the fact you can listen to a sub all day long at 50% volume without blowing it doesn't convince you, then I'll suggest a few other things. First you might try my suggestion, log on to www.teamamp.com and check out the Adire audio forum, you'll find several people using the JBL1200.1 amp(benches at 1350rms) to power the Brahma which is rated at 1600rms. I should bring up that amps have different power ratings at 12v (when the car isn't running) and 14.4volts (when the car is running). Have you heard about subs blowing because the car was off? Nope - car to guess why?
You could look up Richard Clark's site (don't remember the address) and I'm sure he has numerous tech papers - only problem is you have to pay for the articles. That's probably why there is an offer to mail it directly to RanDawg rather than publish it on this site.
Yet another option would to log onto any of the numerous car audio sites and ask "the experts." Most of the sites have reps, owners, and techs from the actual manufactures and they will be happy to verify that an unclipped signal from an underpowered amp cannot blow a sub by itself. I did list numerous situations in which you could potentially blow a sub while underpowering it, however in every case the sub would have blown with a higher powered amp. Guess what answer you'll get on those forums?
Personally I have probably had a dozen different subwoofer systems in which the sub was underpowered - I've never blown a sub under those conditions. Tomorrow I'll go snowboarding. I'll probably log a good 3 hours of time on my 1600rms Brahma subwoofer powered by 1000rms amp - I'm 100% sure that the sub will not blow.
Here is some info from a well respected installer about what blow speakers.
http://totoro.efiregate.net/HTMLPages/Tuning/GainSetting/GainSetting2.htm#SaveSpeakers
And here is one of the most respected sites in the car audio world. I can't get it to show the correct address, but if you type "blow" in the search engine, it will bring up the article on underpowering and blowing speakers.
http://www.eatel.net/~amptech/elecdisc/caraudio.htm
If you approach that second article with an open mind I think you'll conclude 200rms amps don't kill 300rms subs.
>of the others though. and yes i know pyramid and legacy is
>crap. 100 bucks for 2000 thousand watts isnt the best
>quality.(jensen is crap also) ask optikal about it. o and by
>the way im so intimidated by the whole audio world laughing
>at me on the internet haha. i am letting the new info in and
>exploring new ideas, i may change sides but i would like to
>see further argument.
Excellent is good to see that you're willing to look at the other side. Too bad RanDawg isn't. If the simple logic of the fact you can listen to a sub all day long at 50% volume without blowing it doesn't convince you, then I'll suggest a few other things. First you might try my suggestion, log on to www.teamamp.com and check out the Adire audio forum, you'll find several people using the JBL1200.1 amp(benches at 1350rms) to power the Brahma which is rated at 1600rms. I should bring up that amps have different power ratings at 12v (when the car isn't running) and 14.4volts (when the car is running). Have you heard about subs blowing because the car was off? Nope - car to guess why?
You could look up Richard Clark's site (don't remember the address) and I'm sure he has numerous tech papers - only problem is you have to pay for the articles. That's probably why there is an offer to mail it directly to RanDawg rather than publish it on this site.
Yet another option would to log onto any of the numerous car audio sites and ask "the experts." Most of the sites have reps, owners, and techs from the actual manufactures and they will be happy to verify that an unclipped signal from an underpowered amp cannot blow a sub by itself. I did list numerous situations in which you could potentially blow a sub while underpowering it, however in every case the sub would have blown with a higher powered amp. Guess what answer you'll get on those forums?
Personally I have probably had a dozen different subwoofer systems in which the sub was underpowered - I've never blown a sub under those conditions. Tomorrow I'll go snowboarding. I'll probably log a good 3 hours of time on my 1600rms Brahma subwoofer powered by 1000rms amp - I'm 100% sure that the sub will not blow.
Here is some info from a well respected installer about what blow speakers.
http://totoro.efiregate.net/HTMLPages/Tuning/GainSetting/GainSetting2.htm#SaveSpeakers
And here is one of the most respected sites in the car audio world. I can't get it to show the correct address, but if you type "blow" in the search engine, it will bring up the article on underpowering and blowing speakers.
http://www.eatel.net/~amptech/elecdisc/caraudio.htm
If you approach that second article with an open mind I think you'll conclude 200rms amps don't kill 300rms subs.
Junior User
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 56
Likes: 0
From: south of Buffalo
kicker solo baric
I suppose I need to abbreviate, RanDawg???
Here's just the more important excerpts from my last post:
>I actually didn't realize you had this level of
>unfamiliaratity with the way that a subwoofer operates, the
>actual fundamentals...
>
>
>Important concepts that you obviously aren't aware of:
>Amplitude.
>...if you are talking about such low
>voltage levels that the voice coil can't pull the cone
>back...
>Well, it also wouldn't have been able to push the cone out
>either.
>So, the cone would be just sitting there at rest, no risk of
>damage at all.. the voltage would be so low at that point
>the thing wouldn't be seeing hardly a volt, no heat.
>The voice coil ALWAYS has just as much "pull" as it does
>"push"..
>In fact no more, no less, by nature.
>This being the case, if it can control the cone to push it
>OUT, it can control the cone to push it IN.
>Always.
>
And the core of this whole issue, still:
>One thought that needs to be covered for completeness (and
>it's the only one that could lead to any damage in this
>less-than-RMS scenario):
>If you DO exceed the excursion limits of the subwoofer on
>less than the RMS power rating (possible in a large, high
>tuned enclosure, or free air, etc..), what happens is the
>coils leave the magnetic gap for a moment at the top and
>bottom of the cycle. At that point, they lose their "push"
>and "pull" abilities, the voice coil just has fringe-field
>magnetic fields to operate against.
>So this would inherently have some slowing down of the voice
>coil.
>It is very possible at HIGH POWER levels to just launch the
>cone back and forth, right through and again out of the
>magnetic gap, which could send the voice coil colliding with
>the back plate, causing damage, but...
>1) that happens at high power levels
>and
>2) if that happens at lower than RMS power levels (no doubt
>possible in the right enclosure), then it would happen even
>worse at higher power levels...
>The culprit again, NOT the fact that you had too little
>power.
>
RanDawg...
You can't dispute this.
...And to prove me correct, I see you aren't going to try to!
Here's just the more important excerpts from my last post:
>I actually didn't realize you had this level of
>unfamiliaratity with the way that a subwoofer operates, the
>actual fundamentals...
>
>
>Important concepts that you obviously aren't aware of:
>Amplitude.
>...if you are talking about such low
>voltage levels that the voice coil can't pull the cone
>back...
>Well, it also wouldn't have been able to push the cone out
>either.
>So, the cone would be just sitting there at rest, no risk of
>damage at all.. the voltage would be so low at that point
>the thing wouldn't be seeing hardly a volt, no heat.
>The voice coil ALWAYS has just as much "pull" as it does
>"push"..
>In fact no more, no less, by nature.
>This being the case, if it can control the cone to push it
>OUT, it can control the cone to push it IN.
>Always.
>
And the core of this whole issue, still:
>One thought that needs to be covered for completeness (and
>it's the only one that could lead to any damage in this
>less-than-RMS scenario):
>If you DO exceed the excursion limits of the subwoofer on
>less than the RMS power rating (possible in a large, high
>tuned enclosure, or free air, etc..), what happens is the
>coils leave the magnetic gap for a moment at the top and
>bottom of the cycle. At that point, they lose their "push"
>and "pull" abilities, the voice coil just has fringe-field
>magnetic fields to operate against.
>So this would inherently have some slowing down of the voice
>coil.
>It is very possible at HIGH POWER levels to just launch the
>cone back and forth, right through and again out of the
>magnetic gap, which could send the voice coil colliding with
>the back plate, causing damage, but...
>1) that happens at high power levels
>and
>2) if that happens at lower than RMS power levels (no doubt
>possible in the right enclosure), then it would happen even
>worse at higher power levels...
>The culprit again, NOT the fact that you had too little
>power.
>
RanDawg...
You can't dispute this.
...And to prove me correct, I see you aren't going to try to!
Elder User
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 594
Likes: 0
kicker solo baric
Geez guys, I should be getting paid for this.
>First off, the suspension of the subwoofer will pull a
>subwoofer back to center if a signal is suddenly eliminated.
Not necessarily fast enough. But given enough time, all things that oscillate will return to center (as you call it).
>So...
>Important: If the subwoofer doesn't have a large amount of
>power to begin with (less than RMS in this discussion), it
>doesn't have enough momentum to carry itself outside of
>Xmax.
I was wondering how long it would take you to discover this. Well done. However, I foresaw this move as you see, and I say there is atleast one possibility (which is all I need to debunk the claim). If the amp has enough power atfirst to throw the cone into oscillation, and then this power wanes, the cone will have enough energy stored in it to cause damage when control is sufficiently lost. Not to mention if the amp is forced to change voltage because it can't keep the current up. And then not to mention any impedance changes as a result of a lagging effect of the cone with respect to the current per any given frequency. Remember, we cannot always assume the supply power will be constant, can we?
Yes, I am quite familiar with the design and construction of a speaker. Furthermore, I am relatively familiar with magnetic fields and the forces derived from them. IE. force=charge*velocity*magnetic field. The works of Tesla are very old you know. The flux is the integral of the field with respect to the area. Then torque is defined by current*field*area*sin(angle between the field and the area) or you could just say that torque is the product of the field and the vector magnetic momentum. That's right, magnetic momentum. But you are forcing me to recall things from years ago. I know what I know from a basic understanding of how this works, and have formed my opinions from that time, never intending to have to back them up years later. Like I said, submit your work publically, I will have them reviewed by someone respected, then you will be given credit if they hold water.
>As you get to the peak of the sine wave, the current begins
>to change direction.. so your "out" goes "out" slower and
>slower until you cross over the peak, then the magnetic
>force grows weaker and weaker, the cone begins heading back
>to the at rest position...
Good thing I'm not relying on you to grind the cam for my engine with thinking like that. Yeah, current changes direction fast alright, but the cone does not. Fact is, at that point, the cone is lagging the current by a certain phase angle and hopefully will catch up further thru the cycle.
>Important concepts that you obviously aren't aware of:
>Amplitude.
Oh obviously! Those courses in physics taught me nothing about amplitude, could you please go into greater detail? Get real!
>The amplitude of the sine wave is proportional to the motion
>of the cone.
From the sound of this, I could tell you more about sinewaves than you could muster up the attention to sit and listen. I actually know what a sine is.
I think you need to sit and think this through. And a good book on physics in front of you wouldn't hurt either. After all, you may just learn something.
Another thing, please don't form a whole argument after you have screwed up already, it just wastes space. You cannot build a sound argument on physical fallacies. It just makes for more crap I have to go through and delete while responding. Your lack of careful consideration of who you are dealing with may be your downfall. I have stated my credentials w/o error. I suggest you read them again.
I'm outta here for now. You spend a couple days to get your argument together and either post it here for review or post a link to it where the public may review it. Until then....
>First off, the suspension of the subwoofer will pull a
>subwoofer back to center if a signal is suddenly eliminated.
Not necessarily fast enough. But given enough time, all things that oscillate will return to center (as you call it).
>So...
>Important: If the subwoofer doesn't have a large amount of
>power to begin with (less than RMS in this discussion), it
>doesn't have enough momentum to carry itself outside of
>Xmax.
I was wondering how long it would take you to discover this. Well done. However, I foresaw this move as you see, and I say there is atleast one possibility (which is all I need to debunk the claim). If the amp has enough power atfirst to throw the cone into oscillation, and then this power wanes, the cone will have enough energy stored in it to cause damage when control is sufficiently lost. Not to mention if the amp is forced to change voltage because it can't keep the current up. And then not to mention any impedance changes as a result of a lagging effect of the cone with respect to the current per any given frequency. Remember, we cannot always assume the supply power will be constant, can we?
Yes, I am quite familiar with the design and construction of a speaker. Furthermore, I am relatively familiar with magnetic fields and the forces derived from them. IE. force=charge*velocity*magnetic field. The works of Tesla are very old you know. The flux is the integral of the field with respect to the area. Then torque is defined by current*field*area*sin(angle between the field and the area) or you could just say that torque is the product of the field and the vector magnetic momentum. That's right, magnetic momentum. But you are forcing me to recall things from years ago. I know what I know from a basic understanding of how this works, and have formed my opinions from that time, never intending to have to back them up years later. Like I said, submit your work publically, I will have them reviewed by someone respected, then you will be given credit if they hold water.
>As you get to the peak of the sine wave, the current begins
>to change direction.. so your "out" goes "out" slower and
>slower until you cross over the peak, then the magnetic
>force grows weaker and weaker, the cone begins heading back
>to the at rest position...
Good thing I'm not relying on you to grind the cam for my engine with thinking like that. Yeah, current changes direction fast alright, but the cone does not. Fact is, at that point, the cone is lagging the current by a certain phase angle and hopefully will catch up further thru the cycle.
>Important concepts that you obviously aren't aware of:
>Amplitude.
Oh obviously! Those courses in physics taught me nothing about amplitude, could you please go into greater detail? Get real!
>The amplitude of the sine wave is proportional to the motion
>of the cone.
From the sound of this, I could tell you more about sinewaves than you could muster up the attention to sit and listen. I actually know what a sine is.
I think you need to sit and think this through. And a good book on physics in front of you wouldn't hurt either. After all, you may just learn something.
Another thing, please don't form a whole argument after you have screwed up already, it just wastes space. You cannot build a sound argument on physical fallacies. It just makes for more crap I have to go through and delete while responding. Your lack of careful consideration of who you are dealing with may be your downfall. I have stated my credentials w/o error. I suggest you read them again.
I'm outta here for now. You spend a couple days to get your argument together and either post it here for review or post a link to it where the public may review it. Until then....
Elder User
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 594
Likes: 0
kicker solo baric
>RanDawg...
>
>Is the reason that you don't respond to my posts out of fear
>of looking foolish for your standpoints thus far...
>
>Or is it simply because you agree and don't have the pride
>to admit it?
>
Actually I do have a life, and unlike yourself apparently, I have other things that need attention. I cannot devote my every second to you.
>
>Is the reason that you don't respond to my posts out of fear
>of looking foolish for your standpoints thus far...
>
>Or is it simply because you agree and don't have the pride
>to admit it?
>
Actually I do have a life, and unlike yourself apparently, I have other things that need attention. I cannot devote my every second to you.