>>What I stated about the 100 rms was just a scenerio.
>>Now, we all understand you blew a sub using 200 rms or
>>whatever it was on the 300 rms sub.
>>But as I believe you said, the JL website shows the 200 rms
>>as a safe power level. If so, doesn't this lead to user
>>error, box error, driver error, or something?
>
>You could be correct about user error in some respects,
>depending on the knowledge of the user I suppose. However,
>as I remember, it seems to be your argument that an
>underpowered amp cannot blow a higher rated sub. You would
>have to be technically uninformed or totally ignorant to
>believe otherwise. This is the argument you are demanding I
>disprove, is it not?

I am no way saying that a underpowered amp cannot blow a higher rated sub, but that if everything besides the amp's output power, such as proper enclosure, proper gain setting, proper filters for ported box are correct, an underpowered amp won't blow it.

 

>Also, how do you define your use of the word
>"unintentionally"?

I'll save the dictionary definition and just say that I have never blown a sub by application of 'too much power' without surely meaning to blow it. Also, I have never witnessed anyone else doing so.

>I personally have never seen a driver blow unintentionally
>due to underpowering or overpowering.

I hope you never have the misfortune unless it is your goal for testing purposes.

>If you have a lower
>powered amp, and clip the signal, you are intenially
>causeing the chance of failure right?

Didn't someone here say no amount of clipping will damage a sub? I know of several posts that say minimal clipping is fine. Therefore, clipping has nothing to do with anything in this case. It is merely to prove or disprove that an amp of lower rated power than a sub has the ability to blow it.

>but also, I have "intentionally" played with danger on these
>drivers before too. For example:
>I had a kenwood 150 rms amp.
>I ran it with gains wide open without failure to:
>2 12" RF punches rated at 150 rms.
>2 12" kicker comps rated at 150 rms.
>2 15" concept fighter series rated at 400 rms.
>1 10" kicker L5 rated at 450 rms.
>1 15" evo-r rated at 1600 rms.
>Why haven't any of these subs blown?

I never said it WILL happen, you may know what your are doing very well, or you could be lucky, or any other reasons you can think of. I am saying only that it is possible. That is all I need to prove here.

 

>If it's stressed, wouldn't that lead to amp failure and not
>sub failure? Don't take me wrong, I totally agree with
>headroom. I would think an amp rated at 200 RMS at, let's
>say 4 ohms, driving 1 4 ohm sub, shouldn't have a problem
>playing with much stress, or am I wrong?

If the amp is stressed, then it is in question whether it could sufficiently control the driver. I suppose either the amp or the sub may be damaged. Excellent observation.

 

I would say 200wrms would be
>very near the end of that amps capabilities. However,
>200wrms is very far from the actual capabilities of a
>450wrms amp. Therefore, I would say the 450wrms amp would
>be stressed far less by delivering 200wrms and the 200wrms
>amp would be very stressed trying to keep supplying the
>200wrms.
Ok, using your post as a reference above.
You have sub X rated at 500 RMS.
You have amp A rated at 400 RMS.
You have amp B rated at 800 RMS.

Above you say that the 200 rms amp would be more stressed trying to keep up if you had the 450 rms dilivering 200 rms. I predict you would make this 450 rms amp diliver the ~250 rms via gain setting, or no?
Ok now to make things equal.
Adjust the gains on amp A so that it is delivering half of its rated RMS (250) which by all means should blow the sub, seeing how its putting out half the power that the sub is rated at.
Now adjust amp B the same way so that it is delivering half of its rated power (400 RMS).
Since now that both amps are stressed semi equilly (not performing to its max), do you think that amp A will blow the sub and amp B will not since its at the subs rated RMS?
I don't want any techinal jibberish. Just want to know yes or no?

 

>I am no way saying that a underpowered amp cannot blow a
>higher rated sub, but that if everything besides the amp's
>output power, such as proper enclosure, proper gain setting,
>proper filters for ported box are correct, an underpowered
>amp won't blow it.

How are you so sure? Proving a positive does not mean a negative does not exist, neither is it proof of the negative, and vice-versa.

 

>I never said it WILL happen, you may know what your are
>doing very well, or you could be lucky, or any other reasons
>you can think of. I am saying only that it is possible.
>That is all I need to prove here.

Maybe, it's just me, but I think that 0/8 has nothing much to do with luck.

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 01-11-03 AT 08:11 PM (EST)]>How are you so sure? Proving a positive does not mean a
>negative does not exist, neither is it proof of the
>negative, and vice-versa.

Of course not. Newton's third law: for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.

Answer my above question if you will.

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 01-11-03 AT 08:20 PM (EST)]>
>I never said it WILL happen, you may know what your are
>doing very well, or you could be lucky, or any other reasons
>you can think of. I am saying only that it is possible.
>That is all I need to prove here.

Anything is possible, to an extent. Constant voltage, efficient amp, proper tuning and box. Given these factors, how would this, lets say 250 rms amp, blow a 450 rms sub? No sudden voltage drops, no over excursion, no bottoming out, just clean distortionless power. How will it blow, assuming the sub is free of defects?

I am leaving to lose money playing poker. be back later. Wish me luck.

 

>Ok, using your post as a reference above.
>You have sub X rated at 500 RMS.
>You have amp A rated at 400 RMS.
>You have amp B rated at 800 RMS.

I would work for the extra money and buy amp B to drive sub x, given these are my only choices.

>Above you say that the 200 rms amp would be more stressed
>trying to keep up if you had the 450 rms dilivering 200 rms.
> I predict you would make this 450 rms amp diliver the ~250
>rms via gain setting, or no?

I set my gains starting from my source, making sure nothing clips with an o-scope. Lucky for me, I cannot get my DEX-P1R to clip, except when the last 2 frequencies of the 13 band eq are above +8dB (which they never are) at full volume. I then move to the 1/3 octave eq and then the amp, with source still at max volume and while playing a setup cd from Sheffield labs at various frequencies and recording levels. I then play around with various gain settings at various frequencies and recording levels until I am satisfied I will not clip under most circumstances and yet still have headroom for poorly recorded music. Furthermore, I also have the option of boosting the eqs and cd playing volume at the head if needed. Over the years, I have developed a good ear for irregularities in sound and I always have my hand on the remote while pushing the envelope.

>Ok now to make things equal.
>Adjust the gains on amp A so that it is delivering half of
>its rated RMS (250) which by all means should blow the sub,
>seeing how its putting out half the power that the sub is
>rated at.

What do you mean here? Why would a 400wrms amp blow a 500wrms sub if it is putting out only 250wrms? My gains rarely exceed 25%. Sometimes not even that much. Gain setting can take hours, depending on the extent of the system.

>Now adjust amp B the same way so that it is delivering half
>of its rated power (400 RMS).
>Since now that both amps are stressed semi equilly (not
>performing to its max), do you think that amp A will blow
>the sub and amp B will not since its at the subs rated RMS?

If either amp is set at half power, they will neither be near headroom, so why would either loss control of the driver?

>I don't want any techinal jibberish. Just want to know yes
>or no?

Sorry, can't make unqualified answers to these questions, but I kept it simple as possible.

 

>>How are you so sure? Proving a positive does not mean a
>>negative does not exist, neither is it proof of the
>>negative, and vice-versa.
>
>Of course not. Newton's third law: for every action there
>is an equal and opposite reaction.
>
>Answer my above question if you will.

Not sure what question you mean. I try to answer all questions to the best of my ability.

 

>>Ok, using your post as a reference above.
>>You have sub X rated at 500 RMS.
>>You have amp A rated at 400 RMS.
>>You have amp B rated at 800 RMS.
>
>I would work for the extra money and buy amp B to drive sub
>x, given these are my only choices.

It wasn't a marketing question.

>
>>Above you say that the 200 rms amp would be more stressed
>>trying to keep up if you had the 450 rms dilivering 200 rms.
>> I predict you would make this 450 rms amp diliver the ~250
>>rms via gain setting, or no?
>
>I set my gains starting from my source, making sure nothing
>clips with an o-scope. Lucky for me, I cannot get my
>DEX-P1R to clip, except when the last 2 frequencies of the
>13 band eq are above +8dB (which they never are) at full
>volume. I then move to the 1/3 octave eq and then the amp,
>with source still at max volume and while playing a setup cd
>from Sheffield labs at various frequencies and recording
>levels. I then play around with various gain settings at
>various frequencies and recording levels until I am
>satisfied I will not clip under most circumstances and yet
>still have headroom for poorly recorded music. Furthermore,
>I also have the option of boosting the eqs and cd playing
>volume at the head if needed. Over the years, I have
>developed a good ear for irregularities in sound and I
>always have my hand on the remote while pushing the
>envelope.
>
>>Ok now to make things equal.
>>Adjust the gains on amp A so that it is delivering half of
>>its rated RMS (250) which by all means should blow the sub,
>>seeing how its putting out half the power that the sub is
>>rated at.
>
>What do you mean here? Why would a 400wrms amp blow a
>500wrms sub if it is putting out only 250wrms? My gains
>rarely exceed 25%. Sometimes not even that much. Gain
>setting can take hours, depending on the extent of the
>system.

That's my question, Why wouldn't it blow the sub?
You had a 200 rms amp blow a 300 rms sub, but you dont think that 250 rms can't blow a 500 rms sub? I'm lost.
>
>>Now adjust amp B the same way so that it is delivering half
>>of its rated power (400 RMS).
>>Since now that both amps are stressed semi equilly (not
>>performing to its max), do you think that amp A will blow
>>the sub and amp B will not since its at the subs rated RMS?
>
>If either amp is set at half power, they will neither be
>near headroom, so why would either loss control of the
>driver?
Yes, they arent using the headroom that they have available, but they are putting out below RMS rating of the sub, which i believe in your case, and "many others" it causes them to fail?
>
>>I don't want any techinal jibberish. Just want to know yes
>>or no?
>
>Sorry, can't make unqualified answers to these questions,
>but I kept it simple as possible.

 

[updated:LAST EDITED ON 01-11-03 AT 08:46 PM (EST)]Also, answer this question if you would.

Anything is possible, to an extent. Constant voltage, efficient amp, proper tuning and box. Given these factors, how would this, lets say 250 rms amp, blow a 450 rms sub? No sudden voltage drops, no over excursion, no bottoming out, just clean distortionless power. How will it blow, assuming the sub is free of defects?


Also, this one if you wouldn't mind.

Assuming gains are set to match preout voltage, which one do you really think would blow a 250 rms sub first?
1.) 150 RMS amp
2.) 1200 RMS amp

and to your other question..
clipping wont blow a speaker as long as the power and heat created by the clipping does not exceed the thermal or mechanical limits of the sub.

 

>>
>>I never said it WILL happen, you may know what your are
>>doing very well, or you could be lucky, or any other reasons
>>you can think of. I am saying only that it is possible.
>>That is all I need to prove here.
>
>Anything is possible, to an extent. Constant voltage,
>efficient amp, proper tuning and box. Given these factors,
>how would this, lets say 250 rms amp, blow a 450 rms sub?
>No sudden voltage drops, no over excursion, no bottoming
>out, just clean distortionless power. How will it blow,
>assuming the sub is free of defects?
>

Anything is possible. I can accept that. Therefore it is possible to blow a 300wrms sub with a 200wrms amp. Furthermore, to believe so would NOT mean you where either technically uninformed or totally ignorant. If the 250wrms amp was doing all it could to put out 250wrms, it is possible for it to lose proper control of the cone. Possibly resulting in damage. However, if you insist on saying the amp can do no wrong (proper voltages, current, clipping, etc), I don't see how it would blow.

>I am leaving to lose money playing poker. be back later.
>Wish me luck.

I think you luck is grand indeed, 0/8 right?

 

>
>I think you luck is grand indeed, 0/8 right?
Like I said.. What luck?

 

>That's my question, Why wouldn't it blow the sub?
>You had a 200 rms amp blow a 300 rms sub, but you dont think
>that 250 rms can't blow a 500 rms sub? I'm lost.

If the 250wrms is not near the max capabilities of the amp, why can't you understand? Now if it was a 250wrms rated amp instead of a 400wrms amp and the sub was a little less stout that the 500wrms one you're suggesting, it might just be possible.