y'all keep goin on throwin out some technical jibber jabber with some witty wha and some bliggity blah when u prolly have people out there confused as hell like i am. so either dumb it down a little or at least make reference to something else pertaining to sports or a truck.

 

RanDawg-
I assume that JL Audio is a large enough and credible company for you?

If so, read this excert from the page:
http://www.jlaudio.com/subwoofers/RP_Chart.html
Green (MINIMUM):
From a reliability standpoint, this zone represents a very comfortable operating power range for each driver. This level of power will not stress the woofer but will not extract all of its performance potential, either.
Use of less than the minimum power level will not damage the woofer, but may result in unsatisfactory performance.

 

>RanDawg-
>I assume that JL Audio is a large enough and credible
>company for you?
>
>If so, read this excert from the page:
>http://www.jlaudio.com/subwoofers/RP_Chart.html
>Green (MINIMUM):
>From a reliability standpoint, this zone represents a very
>comfortable operating power range for each driver. This
>level of power will not stress the woofer but will not
>extract all of its performance potential, either.
>Use of less than the minimum power level will not damage
>the woofer, but may result in unsatisfactory
>performance.

Well, I blew a 12w6 (rated 300wrms) with 200wrms. So go figure.

Furthermore, they qualify it by saying at the bottom: (I have highlighted key points)
"When designing systems with our drivers, it is **very important** to achieve a good power match between the subwoofer amplifier and the subwoofer driver's capabilities. The power levels listed in the above chart represent continuous (RMS) amplifier power per woofer and **assume** that the user will regularly make full use of that power **without drastically overdriving** the amplifier(s)."

This means you can run a lower powered amp fine, as long as it is not overdriven. Since my amp was only capable of putting out around 200wrms to the sub, and was most likely doing so at the time in question, I can conclude I was atleast very near overdriving the amp. Had I been running a more powerful amp and only putting out 200wrms, I most likely would not have blown the sub. Understand?

 

>>RanDawg-
>>I assume that JL Audio is a large enough and credible
>>company for you?
>>
>>If so, read this excert from the page:
>>http://www.jlaudio.com/subwoofers/RP_Chart.html
>>Green (MINIMUM):
>>From a reliability standpoint, this zone represents a very
>>comfortable operating power range for each driver. This
>>level of power will not stress the woofer but will not
>>extract all of its performance potential, either.
>>Use of less than the minimum power level will not damage
>>the woofer, but may result in unsatisfactory
>>performance.
>
>Well, I blew a 12w6 (rated 300wrms) with 200wrms. So go
>figure.
>
>Furthermore, they qualify it by saying at the bottom: (I
>have highlighted key points)
>"When designing systems with our drivers, it is **very
>important** to achieve a good power match between the
>subwoofer amplifier and the subwoofer driver's capabilities.
>The power levels listed in the above chart represent
>continuous (RMS) amplifier power per woofer and **assume**
>that the user will regularly make full use of that power
>**without drastically overdriving** the amplifier(s)."
>
>This means you can run a lower powered amp fine, as long as
>it is not overdriven. Since my amp was only capable of
>putting out around 200wrms to the sub, and was most likely
>doing so at the time in question, I can conclude I was
>atleast very near overdriving the amp. Had I been running a
>more powerful amp and only putting out 200wrms, I most
>likely would not have blown the sub. Understand?

Assuming you were overdriving the amp, or very near it atleast, wouldn't that come down to user error? Would an amp that is set to 1:1 gain ratio, and ran at a proper ohm load, be considered overdriven or not?

 

>Assuming you were overdriving the amp, or very near it
>atleast, wouldn't that come down to user error? Would an
>amp that is set to 1:1 gain ratio, and ran at a proper ohm
>load, be considered overdriven or not?

Why does it matter? If you are claiming it is not possible to kill a sub with less power than it is rated. Well, I did, for whatever reason. And I therefore continue to recommend buying larger amps. As user error does come into play; however, if one selects a larger amp, they will run less risk of killing the sub. For instance, I have run subs to the point of smelling smoke a few times, and they continue to function properly to this day.

 

>>Assuming you were overdriving the amp, or very near it
>>atleast, wouldn't that come down to user error? Would an
>>amp that is set to 1:1 gain ratio, and ran at a proper ohm
>>load, be considered overdriven or not?
>
>Why does it matter? If you are claiming it is not possible
>to kill a sub with less power than it is rated. Well, I
>did, for whatever reason. And I therefore continue to
>recommend buying larger amps. As user error does come into
>play; however, if one selects a larger amp, they will run
>less risk of killing the sub. For instance, I have run subs
>to the point of smelling smoke a few times, and they
>continue to function properly to this day.

Would you just answer my question about the overdriven scenerio?

If the answer is "no, that woulnd't be considered overdriven"
Then the JL Audio website would be correct in saying that "power below minimun will not hurt the speaker". Given that the 100 rms you are sending it is coming from a perfectly set 1:1 gain ratio seeing a stable ohm load (read: not overdriven, correct?), then it will not hurt the speaker. In summary:
JL audio stated that below minimum power won't kill a speaker.
They also stated that this will hold up if the amp isn't being overdriven.
1:1 gain ratio and a stable ohm load would be considered not overdriven, correct?
All this comes out to state, An amp, rated at lower RMS rating than that to which the sub is rated, and is being played within its limits (not being overdriven) will not hurt a sub. Am I missing out on something?

 

>>Assuming you were overdriving the amp, or very near it
>>atleast, wouldn't that come down to user error? Would an
>>amp that is set to 1:1 gain ratio, and ran at a proper ohm
>>load, be considered overdriven or not?
>
>Why does it matter? If you are claiming it is not possible
>to kill a sub with less power than it is rated. Well, I
>did, for whatever reason. And I therefore continue to
>recommend buying larger amps. As user error does come into
>play; however, if one selects a larger amp, they will run
>less risk of killing the sub. For instance, I have run subs
>to the point of smelling smoke a few times, and they
>continue to function properly to this day.


ever thought that your driver was defective?

 

>Would you just answer my question about the overdriven
>scenerio?

I can only speculate. I can say for sure the amp could not have delivered much more than 200wrms.

>If the answer is "no, that woulnd't be considered
>overdriven"

Well, it doesn't seem to matter does it? The sub was blown, like I said, on 200wrms.

>Then the JL Audio website would be correct in saying that
>"power below minimun will not hurt the speaker".

First off, I was in the green to yellow area, which is not below 125wrms, like you're suggesting. So, give up this argument.

>Given that
>the 100 rms you are sending it is coming from a perfectly
>set 1:1 gain ratio seeing a stable ohm load (read: not
>overdriven, correct?), then it will not hurt the speaker.

Where did 100wrms come from???

>In
>summary:
>JL audio stated that below minimum power won't kill a
>speaker.

Qualified by your not overdriving the amp and your having taken careful consideration of system parameters.

>Am I missing out on something?

Yes, you are assuming a 200wrms amp can put out 200wrms as well as a 450wrms amp can. This is just not the case.

 

>
>Yes, you are assuming a 200wrms amp can put out 200wrms as
>well as a 450wrms amp can. This is just not the case.

How will it not? Power is power. a clean 200 wrms is a clean 200 wrms.
Please explain? If an amp is actually rated at 200 rms, it should have no problem reaching 200 rms, right?

 

>ever thought that your driver was defective?

I have thought about it. I have reasoned this possibility very unlikely for several reasons.

1) This is not the only time I have witnessed a speaker being blown by an amp rated less rms. Others have stated similar scenarios.
2) I have never witnessed a sub being 'unintentionally' blown by the application of more power than rated, even though they smoke.
3) This sub was in operation for a reasonable amount of time before the event in question and was broken-in.
4) This sub was in operation under my supervision at the time in question. I witnessed the cone motion come to a halt.
5) gut feeling.

Upon replacement of the sub, I immediately bought an amp capable of suppling in excess of 450wrms to the new sub, although I doubt it even sees that much. However, what watts it does see, are well below the headroom of the new amp.

 

What I stated about the 100 rms was just a scenerio.
Now, we all understand you blew a sub using 200 rms or whatever it was on the 300 rms sub.
But as I believe you said, the JL website shows the 200 rms as a safe power level. If so, doesn't this lead to user error, box error, driver error, or something?

 

>>Yes, you are assuming a 200wrms amp can put out 200wrms as
>>well as a 450wrms amp can. This is just not the case.
>
>How will it not? Power is power. a clean 200 wrms is a
>clean 200 wrms.
>Please explain? If an amp is actually rated at 200 rms, it
>should have no problem reaching 200 rms, right?

It seems reasonable to say that an amp rated 200wrms by the factory would be rated so by a 'good amp' on a 'good day' (if you know what I mean). I would say 200wrms would be very near the end of that amps capabilities. However, 200wrms is very far from the actual capabilities of a 450wrms amp. Therefore, I would say the 450wrms amp would be stressed far less by delivering 200wrms and the 200wrms amp would be very stressed trying to keep supplying the 200wrms.

Furthermore, power is not necessarily power. As you will see when you come to understand those equations I have posted, the power phase and power factor can change according to the impedances presented by the driver. If an amp cannot continue to supply the required current, for whatever reason, it should be an easy observation to see why the power factor and phase will change as well, possibly requiring more current that the amp can already supply.

 

Also, how do you define your use of the word "unintentionally"?
I personally have never seen a driver blow unintentionally due to underpowering or overpowering. If you have a lower powered amp, and clip the signal, you are intenially causeing the chance of failure right?

but also, I have "intentionally" played with danger on these drivers before too. For example:
I had a kenwood 150 rms amp.
I ran it with gains wide open without failure to:
2 12" RF punches rated at 150 rms.
2 12" kicker comps rated at 150 rms.
2 15" concept fighter series rated at 400 rms.
1 10" kicker L5 rated at 450 rms.
1 15" evo-r rated at 1600 rms.
Why haven't any of these subs blown?

 

>What I stated about the 100 rms was just a scenerio.
>Now, we all understand you blew a sub using 200 rms or
>whatever it was on the 300 rms sub.
>But as I believe you said, the JL website shows the 200 rms
>as a safe power level. If so, doesn't this lead to user
>error, box error, driver error, or something?

You could be correct about user error in some respects, depending on the knowledge of the user I suppose. However, as I remember, it seems to be your argument that an underpowered amp cannot blow a higher rated sub. You would have to be technically uninformed or totally ignorant to believe otherwise. This is the argument you are demanding I disprove, is it not?

 

>I would say 200wrms would be
>very near the end of that amps capabilities. However,
>200wrms is very far from the actual capabilities of a
>450wrms amp. Therefore, I would say the 450wrms amp would
>be stressed far less by delivering 200wrms and the 200wrms
>amp would be very stressed trying to keep supplying the
>200wrms.

If it's stressed, wouldn't that lead to amp failure and not sub failure? Don't take me wrong, I totally agree with headroom. I would think an amp rated at 200 RMS at, let's say 4 ohms, driving 1 4 ohm sub, shouldn't have a problem playing with much stress, or am I wrong?