Yes, the 600 is due to his auto insurance covering the issue. I know i called my insurance company USAA which is always rated as one of the best, said bad fuel would not be covered under insurance. So Rick was very fortunate to have a backup. 9600 when your already making 600 payments is quite a bit of money to swallow, even for a rare occurrence. But i can't help but wonder how Ford is going to get away with this design if it is flawed. I work in the Fire Service, and am seeing more and more of these 6.7's coming into service as small utility, brush, and ambulances. Probably the most used chassis for ambulances is the 350-450. I can tell you that Ford is gonna be in for a world of S*** when ambulances carrying critical patients start shutting down on the side of the road. I know for a fact most ambulances are not putting additives into their fuel, since most are fueled at regular stations. So time will tell with this. I hope this is all isolated incidents. But i can't imagine Ford is gonna turn a blind eye to the issue especially with some of the cargo these trucks will be carrying. Emergency vehicles breaking down and Ford telling cities and ambulance companies to pony up 10 grand is not gonna go well for them.... not to mention the media coverage when little johny dies cause he didn't get to the trauma center in the golden hour cause of a bad designed fuel pump.

 

... continuing about the possibility of emulsifiers in the fuel, let's say that a person does pick up some fuel with emulsified water in it. How long before the pump fails? If it is a relatively small amount of water, perhaps it will only start some pitting on the HPFP cam surface. Will the pump fail today, tomorrow, a week, a month later? You may never know which tank of fuel is actually the culprit, so you may never know which station had the marginal or bad fuel.
I think the fuel pump itself must be more resistant to damage caused by water, particularly if biodiesel is going to become mandated in some areas. If these problems can't be solved, I'm guessing diesels are going to go the way of the dinosaurs.

 

I can vouch for this,ive had 2-2011 i have always drained monthly into a spotless sealed qt jar.i have never seen even a drop of water in the bottom of jar. even after letting it sit a full 24 hrs. never.I always purchase fuel at larger shell truck stops. I wont put in any from a mom and pop store as most dont move enough fuel.nor do they have any filtration at all in ther pump sytem.
So has there been water in my fuel and the seperator is worthless,i cant answer that ? Or i have been extremely lucky.

 

That's a good question, Bob. Remember that Rick bought the vast majority of his fuel from one station. I think that it's likely that they have a consistent fuel problem, and that it took over a year for the problems to manifest themselves and destroy his pump. From everything I gather these pumps really are pretty good about handling contamination. I've seen stories both from here and 6.4Land where people run their truck on bad fuel or even(Gasp!) gasoline and have gotten away with simply flushing the tank, replacing the filters, and driving on. I think it's likely that they caused damage to their pump, but they are still on the road...

 

Or is it simply something inside pump just expoded,with no damage from water or lubriticity issue? Just a part failure. design flaw etc.

 

And that right there is a million dollar question. It's safe to assume that with 250,000 units going in trucks every year that at least a few of them will have manufacturing defects. Who knows? An air bubble in a casting? Someone bumped a tool during machining? These are not possibilities but actual probabilities considering the volume of production. I'm sure both Ford and Bosch would acknowledge that and happily warranty the repair if they could feel confident of the cause. What we don't want to have happen is they start side-stepping their responsibility and use fuel quality as a blanket statement to evade responsibility. The bottom line here fellas is that we just don't have a clue. We don't have the data to know if this is common or if the couple we have heard of make up all the failures to date. There are hundreds of maybe's and what-if's but I just don't have anything to go on yet. I'm going to need more than two failed HPFP's before I start piling on Ford or Bosch.

 

I am not piling on Ford or Bosch for a couple of failed HPFP. I could accept that scenario. Keep in mind that I had two previous engine issues prior to this one. A failed engine fan clutch and one injector failure preceded this debacle. I even joked about it on this site. Weaseling out of a valid warranty claim is what has me up in arms.

Regards

 

Would someone explain to me how bad fuel creates a situation such that the cam roller gets cocked 90 degrees out of alignment with the cam, creating this kind of failure?

Look at how the roller is dished and worn away from the cam? That plunger moves at most, 5 to 6mm up on that cam. How did that piston and roller get sideways? Did Bosch do that by design? Why does Delphi do a square bore design with a shoe follower, that won't rotate 90 degrees out of alignment from the cam, with VW, a year later, and immediately patent it?

Please, keep in mind, I am asking questions... I have my own opinions, but I would like the mechanical engineers and mechanics among us to respond.

Mods, can we add Bosch HPFP, CP 4.2 to the tag line? Thanking you in advance.

 

What model pump did that part come off of?

Edit - I see you edited your post to include the model. Thanks.

Was that pump installed in a Ford 6.7 Scorpion motor?

 

Here i go. 6 mm is just a tad short of 1/4 inch the scores appear to be longer than that distance. without having in my hand to measure. One could possible think the spring is to weak and is floating the piston, thus causeing it to get sideways from beating itself to death.

 

Done, and you're welcome.

We really need to keep this relevant to the 6.7L though. I'm curious as you are about the cause of Rick's failure, but I do know for a fact that there are mechanical differences between the pumps Ford uses and those that other manufacturers put in their trucks.

Are we certain that a change hasn't been made to the pump Ford uses that prevent this from happening? This whole topic may be irrelevant to these trucks.

 

Different pump models.

2011 Injector Pump failure - Page 3 - Chevy and GMC Duramax Diesel Forum

Open up a Bosch CP3 series pumps on the duramax and Cummins engined models, look inside on how it cycles and operates...cast iron...



bosch cp3 pump - Yahoo! Video Search




Then do the same for a CP4 series pump. Regardless of how many pistons and cylinders are on the pump, one, two or three, look inside at the guts, and it will become clear.

Aluminum. with a 2 lobe cam, with tiny roller in a tophat, driving a piston upwards, no means to prevent rotation of roller laterally on the cam.

http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/pdf/c...Components.pdf

More information...

http://www.osd.org.tr/5.pdf

The information is out there... seek, and ye shall find. Google is my friend.

 

The Ford 6.7 uses a Bosch CP 4 HPFP...

Bosch calls the CP4 pump a PLATFORM or series of pumps, which they will design to your fueling needs and specifications.

http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/pdf/c...Components.pdf

The basic design is the same, but they engineer different HP needs, torque needs, number of injectors, size of orffices in injector nozzle down to the micron size, and also number of pulses of fuel shots per cycle, size of those too, via software maps.

Since the platform is the same, and shared across all lines of diesels that run a CP4 platform HPFP, the failures, if induced by the design, will occur in whatever vehicle a Bosch CP 4.1 or 4.2 or 4.3 runs in, regardless of if it is a VW, an Audi, a Ford 6.7. That CP4 Bosch pump is the commonality of the failures. Either by design, as I have come to believe while studying failures since 2008 on Jetta, Golf, and jetta sportswagons (jsw), as well as now the Fords are showing failures, or by the fuel issues, which is what you maintain it is. There are failures of said same pump in England, Canada, Germany, etc, and Bosch is trying very hard to muzzle the problem, pointing fingers at fuel. I don't buy it, we as Americans, have access to cheap fuel, we drive a lot, and we put a ton more miles on than Europeans, where diesel is close to $10 a gallon. Since we log more miles than them, we see wear patterns sooner, as well as failures. We have cheap fuel, we can afford to drive a lot more, and the distances are farther here in the USA.

 

That is my point exactly. If Ford says that WIF caused the damage, well are they going to prove it! No WIF light, no record of it in the PCM, was the fuel tested for water? How can such claims be made with no standing? For all we know Rick could have gotten a ticking time bomb of a HPFP. Ford has to come a little better than this IMO before voiding a warranty claim.

Am I off base here?

 

This is true, and why NHSTA needs to get involved, before someone does die, be it in fires, on a busy interstate at rush hour traffic and you can't pull off safely to the side of the road due to traffic conditions being a cluster f bomb. It's dangerous.

Right now, you guys are the new guinea pigs... you'll learn as more failures show up. Slowly, they will get here, but the numbers will add up and I will bet my trust fund inheritance that Bosch, behind the curtains of FoMoCo, will fight some of you tooth and nail, every step of the way, for warranty work, if it's anything like Volkswagen has been, and they only have 170k of these on the road in North America since their 2009 model came out in June of 2008.

My suggestion, forewarned is forearmed... document everything, have miles, have dates, have receipts, make your case iron clad, before you drop your truck off when it dies. I would also, always, tow your truck if you suspect failure, to a big city Ford dealership with lot's of technicians, and never drop it off on a weekend, ever. Make it a weekday, and stick with the truck and technician when they open that pump up... you need to be there with a digital camera to take pictures of the swarf metal in the high pressure valve when it gets removed. You need to be there when they check the fuel filter, open it up, and it glitters in sunlight like a sparkler with all the metal from your dead HPFP. When they tell you it's normal, demand for them to find where all that metal came from, then steer them to that Bosch HPFP under the hood and have them pull that High Pressure fuel sensor off, and look see inside where there tons of metal shavings, like a machine shop was at work milling up the insides of your HPFP. Take pictures, lots of them. You have to document everything so Ford and Bosch can't weasel out of this nightmare they handed you after they took your money.

If yours' does go, let the service writer know that you read the internet, you are informed of current events on this particular motor and fuel pump model, and that NHTSA is doing an investigation on this pump model... because they are, on the Vw Touaregs and Audi Q7's which have the exact same pump platform, the Bosch CP 4.x series of HPFP. Cover your bases.