HPFP failures
Tuned
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 482
Likes: 28
From: Southern Ontario
I have a hard time fathoming pressures of 20,000 to 40,000 lbs from a fuel pump. I know my 5HP Sprayer at home can put out 3500 lbs and I have seen it cut concrete and asphalt like it was butter. The strain and stress on the complete system must be enormous. It is amazing to me that the injectors can stand up to running that kind of pressure through them without wearing out in a month. If even the smalest particle would be fired through the fuel system at those pressures it must reak havok on the internals. How the heck do the injectors even open and close at those pressures? Amazing.
Super Moderator
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 25,479
Likes: 742
From: Isanti, MN
I have a hard time fathoming pressures of 20,000 to 40,000 lbs from a fuel pump. I know my 5HP Sprayer at home can put out 3500 lbs and I have seen it cut concrete and asphalt like it was butter. The strain and stress on the complete system must be enormous. It is amazing to me that the injectors can stand up to running that kind of pressure through them without wearing out in a month. If even the smalest particle would be fired through the fuel system at those pressures it must reak havok on the internals. How the heck do the injectors even open and close at those pressures? Amazing.
Post Fiend
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,158
Likes: 35
From: North of Salt Lake City
The pump itself is actually not the engineering wonder in the equation. As we used to say in Mississippi, "It aint nothin but a thang..." The piezo injector is the truly amazing part. It is a system in and of itself. Here's a couple of illustrations of how the parts actually work:
Bosch TOP4 CR Piezo Injector video - Teknik Dizel - YouTube
High Pressure Fuel Injection Pump - YouTube
Bosch TOP4 CR Piezo Injector video - Teknik Dizel - YouTube
High Pressure Fuel Injection Pump - YouTube
Tuned
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 482
Likes: 28
From: Southern Ontario
Epic you have taken your video making skills to a new level. Full bore animation! I understand Steven Spieberg is looking for your number as I type 
Amazing views of the injector in simulated operation.
Given the pressures I guess no filter would last in between the HPFP and the injectors. Given the pump is only $1200 the lions share of $12K must rest with the injectors then. Seems to me someone needs to protect those puppies from the HPFP throwing crap at them.
Amazing views of the injector in simulated operation.
Given the pressures I guess no filter would last in between the HPFP and the injectors. Given the pump is only $1200 the lions share of $12K must rest with the injectors then. Seems to me someone needs to protect those puppies from the HPFP throwing crap at them.
Post Fiend
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,158
Likes: 35
From: North of Salt Lake City
Epic you have taken your video making skills to a new level. Full bore animation! I understand Steven Spieberg is looking for your number as I type
Amazing views of the injector in simulated operation.
Given the pressures I guess no filter would last in between the HPFP and the injectors. Given the pump is only $1200 the lions share of $12K must rest with the injectors then. Seems to me someone needs to protect those puppies from the HPFP throwing crap at them.
Amazing views of the injector in simulated operation.
Given the pressures I guess no filter would last in between the HPFP and the injectors. Given the pump is only $1200 the lions share of $12K must rest with the injectors then. Seems to me someone needs to protect those puppies from the HPFP throwing crap at them.
The challenge today is with the fuel. Current water separation technology is struggling to insure proper fuel purity at the HPFP. The fastest and easiest way to insure that is to make darn sure the water is removed and the fuel has the proper level of lubricity. A high performance separator will take care of the water and high quality additives can insure the lubricity. As a preventative measure, it may be wise to further fortify our trucks until the US diesel fuel refining and distribution system is fully up to speed. For now, I am making it a mandatory part of my fill-up to use fuel only from known-quantity suppliers. This is made much easier for those of us with large fuel tanks. The risk of using marginal fuel is cut in half.
Tuned
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 482
Likes: 28
From: Southern Ontario
Epic ...... maybe a target to aspire to then
Yes, I fully concur on the lubricity topic. We need to fortify the fuel we consume until all parts of the supply chain are in sync and can do their jobs.
Some strange info I have dug up/read recently. It seems in the US they have a "guidleine" of a lubricity or scar rating of 520 and here in Canada it is set to 460 which means the Canadian Diesel supply contains more lubricants in it. Also the European rating seems to match the Canadian level. Last point is I read the requirement of the fuel by the pump manufacturer is 400 on the scar rating. Seems to me these things are not in sync. Again emphasises the need to add in some additonal lubricity.
Yes, I fully concur on the lubricity topic. We need to fortify the fuel we consume until all parts of the supply chain are in sync and can do their jobs.
Some strange info I have dug up/read recently. It seems in the US they have a "guidleine" of a lubricity or scar rating of 520 and here in Canada it is set to 460 which means the Canadian Diesel supply contains more lubricants in it. Also the European rating seems to match the Canadian level. Last point is I read the requirement of the fuel by the pump manufacturer is 400 on the scar rating. Seems to me these things are not in sync. Again emphasises the need to add in some additonal lubricity.
Lead Driver
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,600
Likes: 84
Assuming we use quality fuel and everything is perfect in the world, is there a MTBF for the pump and each injector?
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Tuned
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 482
Likes: 28
From: Southern Ontario
Here is a provider of premium Diesel in the US. Look at the cetane and Scar Rating not to mention the storage duration. Wonder how much it is to buy this chit?
CountryMark Diesel Fuel - Premium Diesel-R
CountryMark Diesel Fuel - Premium Diesel-R
Tuned
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 482
Likes: 28
From: Southern Ontario
150% yes. I mean you can do nothing and role the dice, maybe it works out. You can wait and try to play the "Billy Blame Game" if it breaks on getting someone else to pay for the warranty repair or you can take some proactive steps that dont cost all that much to keep the Scorpian happy. I'm in Canada where the Scar is supposed to be 460 and I will continue to use the addittive. Why wouldn't I.
Dont misread my thoughts as supporting a less than desirable fuel supply and manufacturer responsibility. IMHO the Gov. Fuel Providers, and Manufactures need to come to a Jesus meeting and stop leaving the consumer in the dust of their poor management.
Dont misread my thoughts as supporting a less than desirable fuel supply and manufacturer responsibility. IMHO the Gov. Fuel Providers, and Manufactures need to come to a Jesus meeting and stop leaving the consumer in the dust of their poor management.
Post Fiend
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 5,158
Likes: 35
From: North of Salt Lake City
150% yes. I mean you can do nothing and role the dice, maybe it works out. You can wait and try to play the "Billy Blame Game" if it breaks on getting someone else to pay for the warranty repair or you can take some proactive steps that dont cost all that much to keep the Scorpian happy. I'm in Canada where the Scar is supposed to be 460 and I will continue to use the addittive. Why wouldn't I.
Dont misread my thoughts as supporting a less than desirable fuel supply and manufacturer responsibility. IMHO the Gov. Fuel Providers, and Manufactures need to come to a Jesus meeting and stop leaving the consumer in the dust of their poor management.
Dont misread my thoughts as supporting a less than desirable fuel supply and manufacturer responsibility. IMHO the Gov. Fuel Providers, and Manufactures need to come to a Jesus meeting and stop leaving the consumer in the dust of their poor management.
Postmaster
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 3,839
Likes: 2
Lead Driver
Joined: Jan 2010
Posts: 6,600
Likes: 84
The world isn’t perfect so random failures at different times is reality.
All things eventually fail but with the extreme pressure the hardware components are under, it feels like to me these expensive, well built components will still fail early.
I too have a difficult time realizing the pressures involved.
That’s why I was wondering if the manufacture of the major fuel system components (with different life spans I’m sure) actually report a MTBF.
The variables are so different region to region (fuel quality, climate, use, etc.) they may not even feel reporting a number is helpful.
All things eventually fail but with the extreme pressure the hardware components are under, it feels like to me these expensive, well built components will still fail early.
I too have a difficult time realizing the pressures involved.
That’s why I was wondering if the manufacture of the major fuel system components (with different life spans I’m sure) actually report a MTBF.
The variables are so different region to region (fuel quality, climate, use, etc.) they may not even feel reporting a number is helpful.
Last edited by kper05; Oct 11, 2011 at 01:36 PM. Reason: Reworded...not sure what I was typing...