The 09 5.4 has very little more power then the 08 5.4(only with e85 right?) so its a close comparison regarding the two different engines anyways.
Plus when comparing the 460 engine to the 5.4 liter ENGINE, whats the 6 speed got to do with anything?

 

I have to reply to an earlier post about Ford and Dodge diffs being the same. The rears never were, Fords were Ford and Dodge was their own. The fronts were both Dana, but Ford always used high pinion diffs in the front and neither Dodge nor Chevy did this. Dodge does now on the 02 up trucks, but they didn't before. Why do you think every 4x4 guy wants a Ford front end? Especially the 78/9 front (that has to do with suspension set up). But Fords were all high pinion, giving them a strength advantage when used in front, and a reduced drive line angle on lifted trucks. Anyways, I've pulled with both as I've stated before. The work truck with the 5.4 gets same mileage as the 460 and the 460 don't work as hard with a load. The 5.4 managed to overheat itself a couple times. Never had those troubles in the 460. I'm not saying the 5.4 is bad (I'd rather have that truck for the cup holders, A/C and radio - true luxuries in a work truck in 87) but I compare it to a 302 in a truck. Not enough engine. There are thousands of old Fords out there with the 302 and I'm sure plenty of people found them adequate, but you'd rather have the 351 or in a 3/4 or 1 ton, the 460. Hell, 302's looked for an excuse to spin bearings. My old man had a Lincoln that did it. They're awesome in Mustangs because they like to rev and the stang is light, but they can't handle the weight. Granted I haven't heard of 5.4s spinning bearings but they are underpowered in a heavy truck. The V10 is a worthy match for the 460 and is about 430 cubes. I don't like V10s though so I won't have one. I'm truly in a pickle when it comes time to replace my old betty because I don't want an emissions diesel or a V10. I guess that leaves me with a Hemi ram (not really a true hemi like the engines of old-but that's a whole nother internet bar room argument).

 

Thats was my question. People are compareing engines and saying that one is better than the other if the engines have the exact same setups. But they dont and the new 5.4 does have more power and does have a 6 speed box which im almost certain is more real world than compairing engine vs engine. But some people are basing their knowlegde of the comparison on a truck with a 460 vs a truck with a 5.4 4 speed! As owners of the 09's know the new setup feels nothing like the old 5.4 with the 4 speed. But why bring up the 460vs5.4 4 speed on a 09 forum that has 5.4 6 speed? So far the only figures i can find for the 460 vs 09 5.4 shows it to be slower with less HP & TQ. Im still having trouble finding a dyno chart with the 09's TQ curves and where it produces it max TQ. Perhaps someone knows where to find these?

 

Ive read this whole topic, and just in the last few pages there was a fella that had a 09 and a older truck with a 460 in it, and he made his comparison, and he currently has both trucks.

What more statistics does a guy really need? That is real world comparison.

The 09 rated power is 310/365 on gas 320/390 on e85 for the 5.4.

The 08s are 300hp and 365 lb/ft of torque (ten less horse, your telling me you can feel that? Id also like to see them both on a dyno)
The pre 04's are rated at 260 hp, and 350 ft lbs of torque.

Now id venture out to say that most people use regular gas instead of the e85.
Therefore, there is very little difference in power, between the 09 5.4 and the 08 5.4.

I also dont recall anyone bringing up the a 460 vs a 5.4 with a 4 speed. It was always a 460 vs a 5.4.

 

The problem is you cant just generalize the 5.4's as just 5.4's. There's too many and they all feel totally different as time went on. My truck feels like a rocket compared to the stripped out work truck we have at the office with the 5.4 in it. It don't tow anything like my 09 tow's like and I'm sure my trucks weights 2k more without a problem. So yes they may have the same power but they feel nothing alike when you put your foot down or tow. The 6 speed has made a massive difference to how the truck runs and as of yet one person has said that there 460 is faster! Even though Figures say otherwise. Also why wouldnt people use E85! if they carry on selling it people will use it. So yes the 09 does have more power than the last gen 5.4's and more power than the 460. But it would be good to see both trucks stock on a dyno. I have no doubt in my mind that the extra HP and TQ in the 09 5.4 would do what the 460 can with ease and using less fuel even running e85.

 

Guy, lots of people dont run anything but regular gas, take a look next time you fill up. People are cheap, they want cheap gas.
That right there means that no matter what other improvements there are on an 09, the engine is essentially the same as a 04-08, regarding the power, and running regular gas. (unless you really wanna argue about the ten extra horse) (you are a man of figures arent you?)

You keep bringing up transmissions and whatnot, and your right, the 09 would out tow an 08. No one is debating that simple fact that you keep bringing up. The debate is the 460 vs the 5.4, and someone was using a couple years older 5.4 as an example, and you keep saying that the 09s have more power.

When running e85 yes, but most people dont run that, the comparison has been made with the ficticious 5.4 that isnt running e85, yet you still keep saying the 09s have more power!

Essentially you can generalize a 5.4 into three categories of stock power. ENGINES ONLY. (not years and with a 10 hp discrepancy between the 5.4 in the 09 running regular fuel, and the 08 5.4)

I have no doubt in my mind that the fella on here that has a truck with the 460 in it, and the 09 with the 5.4 in it, is telling us accurately what he is noticing. Why would I have any reason to not believe him?

 

Sheldon, the thing is, there are more differences in the truck with the 460 and the truck with the 5.4 than JUST THE ENGINE.

Compare the two MOTORS and see what you get, but unless you swap out the engine with all other factors being the same, the comparison is silly.

 

I don't think that ford ever intended the 5.4L to compete in the same markets as the 460. The torque just isn't there at the right times like the 460 was. I'll tell you though you will pass alot more gas stations with the 5.4L empty or loaded.

 

I know there is more to compare when you are comparing truck vs truck, but the OP wanted to compare engines, not truck vs truck.

The comparison isnt silly at all, as long as people can stick to comparing the motors! It strayed from that a long time ago though, and I realize that.

I mean its not silly to compare a early version of a 5.4 to a later one is it? Or a 302 to a 4.6?

Sometimes people wanna know engine differences.
In case some of you guys dont feel like searching all the way back to the original question
I dont see him asking about truck vs truck. (even though later on he did mention that the only way to compare would be truck to truck comparison, which kinda strays from his own question!)

 

OK, engine to engine. Looks like the torque/rpm ranges differ because of the transmissions they were matched with. To take a different perspective, the fact that there is so much argument pro and con leads me to believe the contest to be quite close. With that said, let's take our magic magnifier and increase the 5.4 in displacement to 460 cu. in., all else stays the same. Or, shrink the 460 to a 5.4 l displacement. What say you now?
Now, a little , does anyone have the rpm vs. torque curve for the 3V v10? Been looking for it forever.


It is better to have less thunder in the mouth and more lightning in the hand. - Apache

 

Don't mistake my statement to mean that I think the original question which is engine v. engine to be silly. What I meant was either you compare the engines HP and Torque with nothing connected or you compare the engines in the same vehicle with the same tranny etc...OTHERWISE the comparison (a truck with a 460 v. a truck with the new 5.4) is silly.

 

I see what ya mean now, and yeah I agree with ya. You cant compare engines, when the engine is in the truck, accurately, especially with such differences like trannies, rear end gear ratios, weights of the truck, etc.

I think that when the OP said his 460 in his older truck felt faster, it is cause of a few things.
First of all I bet the weight of his older 250 is less then his newer 150
Second he mentioned his old truck has 4.10 gears in it, and I believe his new one has 7.73. Thats enough to make a huge difference in the bottom end. (seat of the pants feel-wise)
Lastly I think hes just plain used to his 460 and I bet once he gets used to his newer truck they will feel alot closer in comparison.

 

I think you hit it on the head, especially weight wise (the new Ford is LOTS heavier than the older) and of course the gears play a large part (3.73 vs. 4.10)

 

460ci (7.5L) - 4.36" Bore x 3.85" Stroke
Rod Length - 6.605"

5.4L (330ci) - 3.55" Bore X 4.16" Stroke
Rod Length - Am I wrong when finding 5.9"?

Ya gotta hand it to the 5.4 having that massive stroke in such a small engine.

But the 460 is going to work easier, still, towing hills and country roads.

And if this 'vs.' discussion speaks of any modding of the engines, well, the 460 already has a large displacement advantage.

 

bsimmer-

this is off topic from the OP question, but you keep bringing it up. im not trying to be a smart a$$ here, but im just not getting your argument about how the 6 speed makes the 09 tow better than the 4 speed. yes, the steeper first gear helps you pulling out from a dead stop and the extra overdrive helps you get better gas mileage when driving unloaded. those things make it a better over all tranny without question, but make no difference in the trucks ability to maintain 55 mph or accelerate up a hill under load. if you do a lot of stop and go driving i can see that first gear being a big advantage. but other than that, i dont make too many trips in first gear and i doubt youre going to be towing 8-10k lbs in 5th/6th gear on anything other than flat ground. other than 1st and 6th your gear ratios are virtually identical to the 4 speeds. so my question is, once you get the load moving, how is the 6 speed even going to make a difference?

take my most recent trip for example. yesterday i drove 675 miles from florida back to tennessee. i was at a dead stop when i pulled out in florida, at about 350 miles when i stopped to eat, at about 500 miles when i stopped to stretch and use the bathroom, and then once more when i pulled in my driveway. if i had your 09 f150 i would have utilized 1st gear all of about an 1/8th of a mile over a 675 mile trip. when i hit the hills of nc and tn i would have been shifting back and forth between 3rd and 4th, which are the exact same ratios as 2nd and 3rd in the 4 speed. just because the 6 speed can climb the hill in 3rd gear and the 4 speed has to be in 2nd doesnt mean your truck is more powerful or towing the load better. your 3rd gear is a 1.52 and the 4 speeds 2nd gear is a 1.54. call it whatever gear you want, but its the same thing.

but back to engine vs engine. you say the 09 has more power than the 460 and if you are talking peak hp then yes, you would be correct. but theres more to towing than peak hp, especially when comparing a small block to either a big block or a diesel. they are two totally different animals built with two totally different purposes in mind. big blocks and diesels are made to make peak tq and power at lower rpms(where you spend the majority of your driving) and generally dont make big hp(in stock form). we've got a cummins that has 400 hp and by your reasoning a slightly tuned 5.4 running on E85 should be able to out pull it because it will have more than 400 hp. more hp=better towing, right? but did i mention that our cummins has 1200 lb/ft of tq and redlines at 2200 rpm? we have pulled over 80k lbs with it many times. do you see a 400 hp 5.4 doing that? point being, when comparing small block vs small block hp is relevant because their tq curves generally follow the same path. so more hp generally means more tq. comparing a 310 hp 5.4 to a 240 hp 460 is not the same as comparing it to a 240 hp 5.0.