Maybe im wrong, post some figures youve seen, lets see them.

I use a real mans fuel, diesel haha.
Seriously, have you looked around at the pumps last time you filled up? Try it, youll see what I mean. Do you use the e85? Or do you use regular gas? (simple question)

Well yes, if your running e85, like ive always said, does have more power. If your using regular gas, its got ten horse (which again id love to see on a dyno, wouldnt you?) compared to the 04-08 5.4. Cant argue that fact.
No ones arguing the gears, and look at those ratios in the tranny, Ill bet at cruising speed a 09 f150 gets very similiar mileage as the 04-08 f150. (Im sure youll try to bring up areodynamics, but they arent much different at all)

Smoother, how so? Tranny shifting? I know the 6 speeds shift nice, but the 4 speeds dont shift hard unless ya start doing tuning.

Thats just your opinion, and opinions are great, but doesnt mean what you say is accurate either. (lets see some facts, or hear about real world driving comparisons)

ANYONE that tows serious loads knows that the lower rpm your vehicle stays at, while maintaining a speed, is much much better then shifting up and down, and revving of the engine. The less shifting the better. The less shifting means better economy, better capability, logevity of engine/tranny (or clutch if your using a manual)
This goes for if your towing a utility trailer with a taurus, a midsize trailer with a f150, a fifth wheel with a superduty, or have a set of super b's loaded with lumber behind a peterbilt.

For towing, the more hp, AND torque, plus the ability to use that power where its most needed, and more gears always the better. I dont get why you think people are saying the less gears the better, no one said that.

I didnt know that, Ill see if I can get my dad on the phone and run out and grab me the seriel number. Its parked at his farm 3 hours away.

On edit: Called my dad, got him to write down the vin, f15jlx83121. Next time I go back home Ill take a pic of it, now wheres this other forum?! Im game for winning a bet!!

 

please try actually reading my post before replying to it. first of all, i HAVE towed with a 3v 5.4. like preppypyro has said many times, it doesnt matter if its an 07, 08 or 09 a 3v 5.4 is a 3v 5.4.

secondly, no one cares about the 6 speed, but you and bsimmer keep bringing it up. this is an ENGINE VS ENGINE comparison. last time i checked, the 6 speed was a tranny, not an engine.

thirdly, read my last post. i never said you HAD to run 5k rpm to tow with the 5.4. i said the 5.4 is behind the 460 in tq and hp at every rpm UNTIL 4k rpm. so the 5.4 has no power advantage over the 460 unless you run BOTH of them above 4k rpm.

lastly, neither you or bsimmer has been able to give me an advantage of the 6 speed when towing. other than the steeper 1st gear, the next 4 gears are virtualy identical to the 4 speed. so unless you are stopping and pulling out at redlights every half mile i see no advantage to it when towing. do you do much towing at 55-60 mph in 1st gear? or does the 6 speed magically give your engine more power than the 4 speed even when they have the same gear ratio?

 

seriously man, where are you getting that the 5.4 has more hp and tq than the 460? it has more PEAK hp than the 460, but from idle to 4k rpm the 5.4 isnt even close to the 460. so if you ran both of them from idle to 6k rpm the 5.4 would have more power over 33% of the run and the 460 would have more power over 66% of it. but i guess peak is all that matters.

its obvious youve never towed a heavy load with a 460 or a diesel, so you have no idea the importance of tq over hp. you and tylus keep saying i have no experience with the 09, but at least ive towed with both a 3v and 2v 5.4. i dont need to drive an 09 to tell me that a 6 speed 5.4 with 310 hp in 3rd gear(1.52 ratio) is going to give me the same results climbing a hill as a 4 speed 5.4 with 300 hp in 2nd gear(1.54 ratio). come down to our cattle auction we have here where guys are hauling in 15-20k lbs and tell me how many 5.4's you see in the lot. its all diesels and big blocks.

and like preppypyro said, no one is saying less gears is better. what im saying is that when you are in the gears that you are going to be cruising in at anything above 20 mph the 6 speed is so close in ratios to the 4 speed that you cant tell a difference. can you seriously tell a marked improvement of 1.1 over 1.0? or 1.52 vs 1.54? on top of that, the 4 speed had the option of a 4.10 rear end and the 6 speed only comes with a 3.55/3.73, so the 4 speed will make up that .1 tranny gearing difference because of the .6 rear end gearing advantage.

oh, and why are you bringing 0-60 times into the equation to say its a better tow vehicle? when i said the tundra will spank the 5.4 from 0-60 loaded or unloaded you said that has absolutely no bearing in making it a better tow vehicle. so why would it make the 5.4 a better tow vehicle than a 460?

 

[QUOTE=supeRobertduty;7654427]We can win a bet with the confirmation of your vin number. On another Fourm there is a bounty for a real "J" code F150. Many have said they had one but No one ever produced real proof like a window sticker or a picture of the vin or rubbing EVER.

I missed your reply at first .Thanks alot !

f15jlx83121 GOT IT !

 

I ordered a new 78 F150 and a new 1979 Bronco (which I still have)And the 400ci/6.6 was the largest motor I could get in a 4x4.
So that leaves the 73-77 models . So I am not sure either way, FORD did some weird things.

 

"preppypyro
On edit: Called my dad, got him to write down the vin, f15jlx83121. Next time I go back home Ill take a pic of it, now wheres this other forum?! Im game for winning a bet!! "

preppypyro thanks for checking . I should have said it has to be a 4x4 your dad's is a 4x2
Sorry
I would also love to win that bet.

 

If ya need an actual picture of it, it will be awhile, next time I head out there I will snap one though, IF ya need it!

 

I posted these ratios earlier but here they are again for reference:

6R80

1st: 4.17
2nd: 2.34
3rd: 1.52
4th: 1.14
5th: 0.86
6th: 0.69
Reverse (in case anybody wants to know): 3.40



4R70W

1st: 2.84
2nd: 1.55
3rd: 1.00
4th: 0.70



E4OD/4R100

1st: 2.71
2nd: 1.54
3rd: 1.00
4th: 0.71

You're right that 6 speed doesn't offer any more power while towing other than on take-off... there's no arguing that. From my experience towing with my '09, the advantage of the 6 speed on the highway while towing is that the engine can tow in 5th (in tow/haul mode) while going down the highway. Last week I towed a load of rock that was somewhere north of 8,500 lbs down the highway doing about 60mph, and the tranny stayed in 5th most of the whole trip (https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/8...oad-today.html). The engine ran at 1900 rpm most of the way, only hitting 4th on some hills, doing about 2700 rpm.

In contrast, if I had the 4 speed, I would have had to take the transmission out of overdrive, and it would have been doing 2500 rpm the whole way. 2nd gear on hills would probably ring up about 3600 rpm (pretty simililar to 3rd in mine).

My point is that the spacing between the gears gives the engine more options. 5th is a great towing gear because it is still an OD, but geared lower than most OD's to give more power. To me, this is the biggest advantage.

Likewise, 4th makes a great downshift gear, landing in between 2nd and 3rd ratios on the 4 speed. It gives you enough extra power for most hills without revving the engine sky high.

However, like has been stated repeatedly, this is a comparison between engines not trannys. But, the radically different trannys is part of what makes this a pretty crazy comparison in my mind, not to mention that one engine was designed for heavy duty trucks, the other for light duty, etc........ It's pretty hard to compare engines without taking into consideration what is transmitting whatever power they are making to ground where it is used. If both came with the same tranny, then it's a little easier (but still crazy in this case). Yeah, the 5.4 has come with a 4-speed in the past, but this is in the '09 forum, so one would assume we are talking only about the 6-speed.


But........4,5,6,10, I don't care what speed transmission either of these trucks have, this is a hard comparison to make. It's like comparing a indy car to a stock car.....they both go fast, but that's about where the similarities end. The 5.4 and 460 are gasoline-powered truck engines with 8 cylinders arranged in a 90 degree V, but that's where the similarities end.

 

Lol i cant believe this is still going on. Right we clearly got over the engine vs engine arguement a while ago and it was clearly a pointless arguement as we dont drive around on just an engine so it was a stupid comparrison. I still see people that have no experiance with the 09's that are thinking that using 08 spec's are just as good but are of course not seeing's the new 5.4 has more HP and TQ and more gears in stock form. There's a big difference between towing with the 08's and the 09's no matter how you think the gearing works out and if the people who aint driven it say there's not then clearly you dont know what the hell your talking about. We need to use the real world comparisons here. F150 with 460 vs 09 F150 seeings we are on a 09 forum. Sod all this engine vs engine comaprison as it means nothing. Lets just see some hard facts about each truck and go from there. Already we know the 09 5.4 has more HP,TQ,6 Speed,Fuel economy,Quiter and smoother. Also, even though some think it aint. The 09 F150 on paper is almost 2 secs's quicker than a older F250 with the 460. I cant find any comparrisons of F150's with 460 0-60 so i cant argue that. I dont care if it's faster but im just stateing some facts for people who think it aint. Do a google search and you can find plenty of info for both engines. So all the 460 has over the 09 f150 is a little bit more TQ lower down which means nothing to me as i have gears to make up for the difference. I know for a fact that i can tow in a higher gear than the 460 could and perhaps i will be doing more RPMS but it will still be quiter, Smoother and getting better fuel economy than if the 460 would be doing the same thing. It's vary very rare i have to drop below 4th gear and thats towing 8000lbs at time's around the mountain roads here. So that means that i will be in the same gear as the 460's highest gear!!! Now if i got a very steep slope where i had to change down to 3rd im almost certain that the 460 would also have to drop to 3rd on that same road with the same load but again i will still be getting better MPG and quiter than the 460. So in all this to me adds up to a better tow vehicle.

 

theres no arguing it, but two people seem to be making that argument quite a bit. the 6 speed is an improvement, but its not some earth shattering upgrade that makes the opinion of everyone that doesnt own an 09 irrelevant. if someone asks how the 09 handles or rides, i cant really comment since i dont own one. but ask me how the 5.4 compares against a 460 or a 7.3 and i have a pretty good idea. a difference here and there of .1 or .2 on a couple of gears is negligable. my point is, first gear is a big difference, but how long or often are you in first gear? the other gears are so close that its like saying you can take two identical trucks and put a 4.10 rear end in one and a 4.0 in the other and tell me which is which just by driving them.

 

If you think your truck is gonna be getting better economy at 5k rpms (example) compared to a big block revving at 2100(example) you have alot to learn about engines, and how fuel is consumed. If an engine (any engine) makes more power lower, they will be using that power more efficiently at a lower rpm, what about that do you not understand? It goes for ANY engine, not just these in comparison. A newer truck working at higher rpms in a lower gear, will consume more fuel.
Where you keep getting this smoother thing from I have no idea. Have ya ever driven a 460 coupled to a 4 speed automatic?
Theres a reason people love the diesels to tow, they make plenty of power down low, with the ability to stay in a higher gear. THATS what makes a great tow vehicle.

Id like to see a scale slip on that weight.

If your in 4th, with your tranny there is a 1.14 ratio, and in an older tranny, in fourth gear its a .70, or .71. Please tell me your not talking about the same numeric gear number, like on the shifter? (if so thats about the silliest thing ive read in this thread so far!) Its more then just 1234, or 123456 on the selector.

Again im not really sure whats so hard about this to understand, but in your truck, 3rd gear the ratio at the tranny (not taking into consideration the rear end either) is 1.52.
The older trannies will be at a ratio of 1.00.
How would you be getting better fuel economy? Dude you just dont make any sense. Also if ya start thinking about it, a big block is making its power down low, so it doesnt have to rev as high, so there again its not using as much fuel.(not saying it will be great on fuel, but it would be working in its efficient power range)

I think you need to either try towing with an older f250, or do the same simple calculations that I have been doing.

Also, ya never did answer the question, do you regularily use e85 to get the full power out of your truck, or do you use regular gas, and get 10 more horse then the 04-08 5.4? Im curious.

I think these two motors are great to compare! One makes power down low, one makes it high. One is using new technology, one old technology. Its a classic type comparison!
At first I actually kinda found it amazing that the hp/tq numbers between the two were so close. Where each engine makes its power are sure different.
Im not really sure why some people get so p1ssy when they find that an older ford engine can do some things just as well, or better, then a new one.
Now comparing the trucks, well yeah that is kinda silly, cause the 09 really does win in just about everything you can compre! In the end its still an f150 vs an f250, and the f250 is gonna win some of the heavy duty comparisons.

 

thanks for a great post that makes sense.

 

Again where do these 5k rpm figures come from? I dont think i have ever even hit 5k rpm in my truck. It changes way before then even when in tow/haul mode? Again this is the kind of crap i keep hearing from people who have zero experiance towing in an 09 or even driveing one. THEY ARE NOT LIKE 08's PEOPLE. wow it's like talking to a brick wall and no i dont use E85 but i would if they had it in my area. But what on earth has that got to do with the engie, It makes no difference if me or you or anyone else uses it or not. The engine needs zero work to be able to put out the figures they say so it's a stock figure and it's almost exactly the same cost per mile but with the extra power avalible for towing. Not that my truck has any trouble towing using reguler. But if i wanted the extra power it's there for extra cost if it's avalible. But like i have said all along. Who cares if you have to run at 3k rpm up a steep hill in 4th when it's quiter than a 460 running in 4th at 2000rpm and getting worse MPG to boot.

 

Just to set the record straight (I know, I'm showing my age) I know for a fact that Ford offered a 460 in F150's in 78 and 79. I'm not sure about 77. It was offered in 2wd trucks only. the 400-M 2v was the biggest engine offered in a 4wd. If memory serves me right, the 460 was only available with an automatic transmission as was the 400.

 

EXAMPLE, same type of thing like you use when you comment on the 460 and have no experience with one. Dont worry about the numbers, think of the theory behind it.
I know EXACTLY what you mean man, wait for my next paragraph

Well my friend, if you dont use e85 in your truck then you have the same power in the engine then the 04-08, no matter what you think or feel.(wait im wrong, you have TEN extra horse, thats it, according to ford, the people that made the truck) Unless ford somehow magically produced every truck but yours this way. What your probably feeling is the upgraded tranny.(which no one is debating, but the better transmission doesnt make the engine have more power, its rated what its rated at) It has everything to do with the engine, its not like you can produce the top power figures unless you run that e85.

I dont doubt that, dont think anyone ever said that etiher!

You could always mod a 460 up, but I know what your getting at. Still unless ya run that e85...

I gotta address this. When it comes to towing performance, being a quiet engine means didly squat. Is it nice? Well yeah, to some guys. Some guys like the loud exhaust (wonder how quiet a toyota is, would that make it better then a ford, cause it is quieter, and got better mpg?)
Please tell me you dont think your truck is a better towing vehicle then say my 7.3 diesel 3/4 ton, cause its quiet? (just using that as a point, not wanting to get into comparing a diesel to a gas or whatever)
Also, where does the 2k figure come from with the 460? Plus, do you have any proof (paper or real world experience) on the fuel economy numbers of a 460 towing at so and so many rpm compared to your truck? If not, then your pretty much doing the same thing that you just mentioned you hated, in your first paragraph, your talking like youve driven miles and miles towing the 460, and you know exactly how loud it is, how hard it pulls, and what kind of fuel economy it gets while towing. Have you? Link to support that? Anything?

I like to learn stuff I dont know about, so educate me! (I know your opinion, but everyone has an opinion, doesnt mean its accurate)