The thing with payloads is they are what they are and if you built any other truck with the same features as each other they would have almost the exact same payload figure. I think the Tundra and F150 both have a GVRW and if one is fully loaded and one is basic then of course one is going to have a higher payload. It all depends on how you build them. The Ford may have the highest payload but perhaps Tundra dont make a model that is as basic in options as the Ford. But Ford do offer it none the less. Cant say i have been impressed with Dodge as all since moving over here. We have a durango here and it's a piece of S**t just like every other Dodge i have ever driven. I didnt even like the 09 Ram i was loaned for the weekend. But just because it's not my cup of tea it dont mean someone else wont like it.

 

I'm surprised you 460 out ran the 09 with the 5.4. Are you sure it's really faster and the torque doesn't just snap your neck back and make it feel faster than it really is. Lots of people think their older trucks are faster than newer models with 150 more hp when what they are feeling is the older engines peak torque at early rpms, when the newer engines are just more smooth, and you don't feel the power like you could in the older engines.

 

Whats a stock F150 with a 460 in it do 0-60? I see 460 a few weeks ago that had a SC and some pretty major engine work and i think it was 0-60 in 6 secs. what i thought was pretty dam quick for it's age But i cant find nothing about the stock figures.

 

well, the thing with the payload isnt just a matter of which one is fully loaded. virtually all f150's come with a GVWR of 6800-7200 lbs depending on which model you get. that GVWR is the same as the dodge, tundra, titan, etc. the ford, by nature, is a heavier truck than the others. so in standard form the ford is going to have less payload than the others. like you said, thats just simple math. same GVWR+heavier truck=less payload. the difference is that ford offers a "heavy duty payload package" that ups the GVWR to 8200 lbs, which basically makes it almost an f250 and shouldnt be classified as a 1/2 ton truck if you ask me.

i just dont get the "ford is great, all others are POS" arguments though. i really dont. for years ford guys talked about how ford differentials were sooooo much better than the dodges because they were made by dana. if they would have crawled up under their truck they would have seen that both the dodge and ford came with the exact same dana. did dana suddenly forget how to make differentials when they got to the ones they put on the dodges? or ford guys complain about the dodge/chevy transmissions, say they are crap, etc. but the dodge viper, srt 10, chevy corvette and camaro all came with the BW t-56 tranny which is the exact same tranny thats in the cobra. the only difference (other than gear ratios) was that the ford has a 10 spline input shaft and the gm has a 26 and the dodge has a 31, which actually makes the gm and dodge stronger. or does BW secretly give for the "good" stuff just to make GM look bad? the allison tranny is no joke either. the majority of the stuff on a vehicle(ball joints, trannys, bearings, etc), whether it be a dodge, chevy or ford, come from the same manufacturer.

 

when we were comparing all of our trucks the 460 was faster than the 3v 5.4 from idle to about 3500 rpm and then the 5.4 was faster from 3500 rpm to redline. it all just depends on where you want to make your power. if youre talking about a 1/4 mile drag race, the 3v 5.4 is the way to go because youll never be below 3500 rpm. but if you want shear stump pulling power for towing then the 460 wins hand down by a mile because itll pull whatever you hook to it anywhere you want to go without even getting close to 3500 rpm.

 

Again what im saying is if you spec them the same they are almost identical payload. Also where are you getting your infomation about the Ford being heavier truck in standard Form as i cant find any details about any truck weight in what you call a standard form. What do you class as standard? As an example the Tundra, Titan and F150 have the same GVRW in the larger size trucks. If you want a higher paylod in any of them you have to go light on the options on all 3 of them. But they will all top out at 7200lb's GVWR. But at least Ford offer trucks with 3000lb+payload if people want them. In the end it's a persons choice if they load a truck up with options or dont. It's nothing to do with Ford lieing about payloads as they all have the Issue where the payload decrease's with options.

Plus i dont think all other brands are a POS just the Chrysler stuff mainly. On our drive we have a Mazda, Chevy, Dodge, Range rover, Ford, BMW at this moment in time, We have had Lexus, Merc's, GMC's and numerous other brands of cars and thats just this year alone so i get a chance to try out quite a few different brands and most of them are pretty nice but the Chrysler stuff i have ever been in and driven has truely been awful. Our Chevy aint been much better though whilst thinking about it. It's on it's 3rd Trans.

 

by standard i just mean equally matched trucks without getting heavy duty upgrades like the heavy duty payload package. as far back as i can remember a ford f150 regular cab has weighed more than a dodge or chevy 1500 regular cab, same with extended cab vs extended cab. the 09 dodge regular cab 4x4 weighs 5300lbs and the 09 ford reg cab 4x4 weighs 5700lbs. the ford has a 400lb higher GVWR, which means they have the exact same payload unless you get the upgraded payload package. to me, getting the upgraded payload package and comparing it to a normal dodge is like racing a mustang against a camaro, but instead of using the gt they use the gt 500. its still a mustang vs camaro, but not really the same class of vehicle.

i just dont think the heavy duty payload option should be considered an f150, but ford markets it that way because they know it will sell better than a light duty f250 and will give them best in class numbers. remember back in 97 when ford had the f250 light duty? no one bought it because people dont want light duty anything. we want heavy duty, super duty, best in class,etc. you can take the exact same truck and call it an f250 light duty and people will b*tch and moan about it being too weak, but then put an f150 heavy duty tag on it and those same people will brag about how tough it is and how ford gives them the option to upgrade. after the 97 f250 light duty "crap" that no one bought ford brought it back the next year and called it an f150 "7700" to make it seem heavy duty, and the f150 guys loved it.

 

i agree with you on a lot of dodge/chryslers cars. but dodge builds a good truck and has some good cars too. the problem with dodge cars is they went through a rough patch and put out some bad products in an attempt to save money, just like ford did back in the 80's and 90's. dodges rough patch just lasted a little longer than fords. remember the tempo, escort, probe, bronco 2, rangers, etc that came with the cologne engines that were lucky to make it off the lot without cracking a head, door handles and window rollers that would fall off the first time you used them, etc? ford knew the f series, mustang and ltd were their bread and butter, so they didnt skimp on anything with them (unless you count the 80's f series where ford used cheap recycled japanese metal on their beds and they would rust off the first time you washed them), but they cut a lot of corners on everything else to save money.

 

I don't understand what's the deal with low RPM. The mod engines last just a long as any other gas engine and get good MPG while doing it.

Anyway I just had the opportunity to tow about 3500 lbs with 3 people in the Explorer and about 500-800lbs of gear in the back. It towed it very easily. Much better than my 2000 2 valve 5.4 would. What's the point of this? The engine with more technology and the better transmission easily outpulled the bigger engine. Also there are times where that little 4.6 was putting down as around the same torque to the wheels with 3.55 gears as the 460 does with 4.10s.

I'm glad you like the old engines and old rigs. I've driven the 460, 351 (still drive one at work), 302, 300, 4.6 2v and 3v, 5.4 2v and 3v, and 6.8 2v. I'll take a mod engine any day of the week along with the drivetrain that comes with them over the old iron.

Mike

 

the deal with lower rpms is a personal choice. some of us like to hit a hill in 5th gear with any amount of weight behind us and just keep going like its not even there. some people dont mind hitting 3rd gear and turning 5k rpm. if thats the case, they wont have a problem with the 5.4. im one of the people that does mind that, so i like diesels and big blocks better. when im stuck at a red light on a steep hill with 12-15k hooked to the back of my truck, i want peak power at 2k rpm, not 4500 rpm.

that last statement......thats why we keep having these comparisons. because someone comes up with an equation to multiply gearing by hp by tq or rpm or something like that to come up with a way for something like a 4.6 with 3.55's to outpull a 460 with 4.10's. yeah, if you have a 4.6 in 2nd gear at 4500 rpm, with 3.55's youll probably be able to put more "power" to the wheels than the 460 in OD at 2k rpm with 4.10's. thats fine on paper, but hook 15k lbs to a 4.6 and a 460 and then take them both to the mountains and tell me which one youd rather have. while youre in 1st or 2nd gear maximizing your gear multiplication or whatever ill be cruising along at the speed limit.

theres a difference in driving a 460 or a diesel and towing with one. if you drove my diesel and then drove my 5.4 youd swear the 5.4 would pull circles around it. driving them unloaded is a night and day difference. the difference is that the diesel/460 drives the same with 10k hooked to it as it does unloaded and the 5.4 nose dives fast. its like a bulldozer. its not going to win any races, but it goes the same speed no matter what you hook to it.

 

I'm not going to argue about diesels, they are in a whole different league. What I will say though is that if you hook up 5 tons it will drive different. I've driven every Ford diesel except the 6.9 and 7.3 non turbo IDI.

However I'll still say that the 5.4 3v and a modern drivetrain will out work a 460 all day, get better MPG, run quieter, and smoother. I have the math on my side as well.

Mike

 

you can use math all you want and thats fine, but math doesnt always translate to the road. sometimes it does, sometimes it doesnt. ive towed the exact same trailers up the exact same hills with a 460 and a 2v and 3v 5.4 and theres no comparison. you may have math on your side, but i have the trucks in the driveway.

and no, my 7.3 doesnt drive differently with 5 tons hooked to it. i have a steep hill for about a mile getting out of my neighborhood. with my 5.4 i can climb the hill in 4th gear unloaded, but with my trailer i cant get out of 2nd gear. with my diesel i can climb it in 4th gear unloaded or loaded. the only difference is i use the turbo with the load and unloaded i dont. either way, there is a much much much less drop off with the diesel or the 460 than with the 5.4 and thats a direct result of WHERE the peak power is, not WHAT the peak power is.

 

Is this debate still compareing the 460 to the 5.4 4 speed or new 5.4 with more HP and TQ and 6 speed? I cant be arsed to read back through the thread to find out what version it is being compaired to.

 

It still seems to be the same old argument, one is arguing trucks and the other is arguing engines.

 

So we are still on 460 engine vs pre 09 5.4 Engine. Think this thread would have better of in the 08 forum as it really has nothing to do with the 09 5.4 with 6 speed!