Ideas on problems starting?
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,831
Likes: 121
From: St Albert, Alberta
The major draw in the vehicle is the starter. So a ground the same gauge as the postive to the starter to the engine block for ground is adequate for that. Then the ground strap to the body is usually off the back of the intake to the fire wall. #8 AWG is more than adequate for this. Then a ground strap from the body to chassis, #10 AWG is more than adequate for that. In a P/U you should run 2 body to chassis grounds one for the cab and one for the box.
Additional ones that may be considered #16 AWG from body to hood #14 battery to header panel these are more of bonding straps than grounds.
Now since you know your ALT is in fact fine and your meter was NFG (I always verify wonky DVOM readings with an analog meter). Your battery is the prime suspect..
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Elder User
Joined: Aug 2009
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Likes: 2
I have actually upgraded to 8 gauge from engine to body by the firewall, the starter should be grounded out enough by the block. I think I am over thinking this, but better safe than sorry? Again, no parts store in my area sells decent batteries, but I plan on returning mine for refund and buying an interstate in a 750cca flavor Monday from an authorized dealer. My fear is, this problem will disappear one day, maybe already, and I'll have no answer to what it was. I'm already swimming in new parts. But because I replicated the problem today, 2 times out of 20, I still didn't fix it?
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,831
Likes: 121
From: St Albert, Alberta
Below is a quick tutorial on battery testing from Kent Bergsma.
The little pocket conductance tester he has is not super accurate but will do the job, I have this guy and a professional level Midtronics 700 unit. The Solar is a good handy pocket unit but it will often pass batteries that the Midtronics unit fails. The Solar will give you a rough idea none the less. When I get tests that are close to marginal on the Solar I dig out the Midtronics unit. It is more involved to use and has the capability to test the charging system and starter.
The little pocket conductance tester he has is not super accurate but will do the job, I have this guy and a professional level Midtronics 700 unit. The Solar is a good handy pocket unit but it will often pass batteries that the Midtronics unit fails. The Solar will give you a rough idea none the less. When I get tests that are close to marginal on the Solar I dig out the Midtronics unit. It is more involved to use and has the capability to test the charging system and starter.
FTE Legend
Joined: Nov 2015
Posts: 30,890
Likes: 4,119
From: Angier, NC
I have actually upgraded to 8 gauge from engine to body by the firewall, the starter should be grounded out enough by the block. I think I am over thinking this, but better safe than sorry? Again, no parts store in my area sells decent batteries, but I plan on returning mine for refund and buying an interstate in a 750cca flavor Monday from an authorized dealer. My fear is, this problem will disappear one day, maybe already, and I'll have no answer to what it was. I'm already swimming in new parts. But because I replicated the problem today, 2 times out of 20, I still didn't fix it?
On the 300 six the ground is a long cable that has a tab in the middle that bolts to the top of the frame rail and the end then goes to the top bolt of the starter.
This picks up and frame grounds and the starter has its own ground and the motor goes thru the bell housing.
New cable top with the frame tab installed
It also had a #8 wire from the motor to fire wall for body ground and one from fire wall to hood.
Dave ----
Moderator
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 56,980
Likes: 2,735
From: Virginia
On all the v8's, the starter was grounded through the mounting of the starter. I am not sure why they ran the ground directly to the starter on the six. Probably the most convenient spot to mount it. I believe sometimes even Ford engineers had a "get er done" type of attitude. You can see it when you work on these things.
Lead Driver
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 7,172
Likes: 1,173
I think I'll step out of the conversation for a day or two. Maybe the rest of you can figure it out if not distracted by my alleged thought process.
Ah, but you know me, I'll chime in before too long with a verbose treatise, maybe covering the chemical composition of battery cables or who knows what else. Meanwhile, I've got to attend some Mandatory Family Fun this afternoon...
Don't forget to post a picture of that yellow meter smashed to pieces and distributed in separate trash cans...
Ah, but you know me, I'll chime in before too long with a verbose treatise, maybe covering the chemical composition of battery cables or who knows what else. Meanwhile, I've got to attend some Mandatory Family Fun this afternoon...
Don't forget to post a picture of that yellow meter smashed to pieces and distributed in separate trash cans...
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,831
Likes: 121
From: St Albert, Alberta
Don't bet on that.
On the 300 six the ground is a long cable that has a tab in the middle that bolts to the top of the frame rail and the end then goes to the top bolt of the starter.
This picks up and frame grounds and the starter has its own ground and the motor goes thru the bell housing.
New cable top with the frame tab installed
It also had a #8 wire from the motor to fire wall for body ground and one from fire wall to hood.
Dave ----
On the 300 six the ground is a long cable that has a tab in the middle that bolts to the top of the frame rail and the end then goes to the top bolt of the starter.
This picks up and frame grounds and the starter has its own ground and the motor goes thru the bell housing.
New cable top with the frame tab installed
It also had a #8 wire from the motor to fire wall for body ground and one from fire wall to hood.
Dave ----
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Elder User
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 928
Likes: 2
I'm trying to accommodate everyone here!
spent all night on the charger last night. Turned over key....slow start.
saw tractor supply had exide batteries and it was a recommended "good" brand, so I picked up a 750cca flavor, bought it outright. While still leaving my battery installed, slow start leaving the store. Drove to autoparts store to recoup money on crap battery, in parking lot I installed exide battery. Surface charge on new battery was 12.3, a little low. Took old battery in, and said they can't return because it tested good...but I know ways around that system....I didn't feel like arguing with the guy, ill exchange it tomorrow when my buddy gets in. The guy didn't understand how a tested good battery could still be bad.
first crank with new battery....slow crank, but I'm hopeful that it was because of a low surface charge.
spent all night on the charger last night. Turned over key....slow start.
saw tractor supply had exide batteries and it was a recommended "good" brand, so I picked up a 750cca flavor, bought it outright. While still leaving my battery installed, slow start leaving the store. Drove to autoparts store to recoup money on crap battery, in parking lot I installed exide battery. Surface charge on new battery was 12.3, a little low. Took old battery in, and said they can't return because it tested good...but I know ways around that system....I didn't feel like arguing with the guy, ill exchange it tomorrow when my buddy gets in. The guy didn't understand how a tested good battery could still be bad.
first crank with new battery....slow crank, but I'm hopeful that it was because of a low surface charge.
Posting Guru
Joined: Sep 2011
Posts: 1,099
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From: Northern Indiana USA
Off topic, but one way to cure hard starting on 6V systems was to run the ground cable to the starter bolt.
I did this on a Pontiac V8,with a 12V system, and it seemed to help immensely.
I did this on a Pontiac V8,with a 12V system, and it seemed to help immensely.
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Elder User
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 928
Likes: 2
Went to the gas station after a 20 minute drive, came back out 5 minutes later, battery showed 12.4, went to crank it over and had the mother of all slow starts, tried 3 times to get it to turn over, all the while hearing this groaning noise from somewhere in the passenger side fenderwell. Finally get it started and the alt sounded like it was slipping the alternator belt a little, voltmeter only showed 13.6, drove it for a minute and squealing went away and charging went to normal 14.4.
drove it 15 minutes back home and shut it off, voltmeter showed 13.2. Started it back up and no problem.
I'm 4 for 5 on slow starts today....
drove it 15 minutes back home and shut it off, voltmeter showed 13.2. Started it back up and no problem.
I'm 4 for 5 on slow starts today....
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Elder User
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 928
Likes: 2
Now I'm 5 for 7 today now. here's an interest clue, when the engine is shut off, my voltmeter actually shows 13.0, which if you remember is higher than the 12.6 the old battery showed. I'm half tempted to swap batteries againn.
Im thoroughly convinced at this point that there is nothing wrong with the starter, alternator, solenoid, battery, or any wiring in between.
Next move is testing the ignition switch and associated wiring?
Im thoroughly convinced at this point that there is nothing wrong with the starter, alternator, solenoid, battery, or any wiring in between.
Next move is testing the ignition switch and associated wiring?
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Elder User
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 928
Likes: 2
A caveat to giving up, I also wanted to post this test I did. Sitting idling I showed 14.4 volts, I noticed fluctuation as I turned other accessories on so I tested them.
with the heater on full blast, voltage dropped to 14.2
with the lights on high beams voltage dropped to 14 volts
with heat full blast and lights on bright my gauge only showed 13.7
none of these seemed to change with rpm, is this normal drop for accessories?
with the heater on full blast, voltage dropped to 14.2
with the lights on high beams voltage dropped to 14 volts
with heat full blast and lights on bright my gauge only showed 13.7
none of these seemed to change with rpm, is this normal drop for accessories?
Post Fiend
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 5,831
Likes: 121
From: St Albert, Alberta
well the electrical system is ruled out by the sounds of it. The ignition switch is just the control voltage for the starting system.
Now you have a good meter. Just a quick test pull the ignition start feed from the starter relay.
Check voltage at coil when in the run position and when in the start position. Start should be 12V This just to confirm you are the extra voltage during start.
I think you are going to have to consider mechanical interference/friction some where. IE starter drive to flywheel.
Now you have a good meter. Just a quick test pull the ignition start feed from the starter relay.
Check voltage at coil when in the run position and when in the start position. Start should be 12V This just to confirm you are the extra voltage during start.
I think you are going to have to consider mechanical interference/friction some where. IE starter drive to flywheel.
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Elder User
Joined: Aug 2009
Posts: 928
Likes: 2
