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Ideas on problems starting?

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Old 11-14-2017, 03:27 PM
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Ideas on problems starting?

86 f350, 460 4x4. Having problems starting. Acts like timing is too far advanced, base timing set at 14 degrees, I swapped in a planetary starter from a newer ford, brand new 1000cca battery, 3G alternator swap. Seems to start fine when cold, and it doesn't always happen, it just real slow to turn over, sometimes, so I let off the key and attempt it again, after a few attempts to turn over the engine, I finally fires up. I've went through the electric system and upgraded as necessary, but I'm just not sure what else would cause this? Like I said, it almost seems or acts like too far advanced timing how it is slow to crank, as if it had silly high compression. Thanks for everyone's help and I will test all theories and answer all questions!
 
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Old 11-14-2017, 03:45 PM
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I'm assuming battery cable clamps, grounds & connections are good; but the cables themselves can be internally corroded & also have increased resistance from age.........none of which is visible.

I've had this situation, & replacing all the cables made a huge difference.
 
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Old 11-14-2017, 04:47 PM
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Yes, replaced all wires and connectors, I believe it's 2 gauge. I recall once measuring voltage as it cranked and it darn near zapped the battery it drew so much current. It's got headers too, wrapped and sealed, but they are fenderwell headers and wouldn't suspect heat soak.... as you can probably tell, I've covered just about all my bases on common problems.
 
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Old 11-14-2017, 05:22 PM
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Timing chain stretched?
 
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:04 PM
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To see if it is a timing issue when hot remove the coil wire from the dist and set it to ground and see if it will crank fast.
If so you know where the issues lays.


Now I remember a post something to do with the DSII box having a cranking/starting timing retard? Now from what I remember some of the boxes checked did not retard the timing. Cant remember if it was the old Motorcraft box or after market ones or little of each?
Dave ----
 
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Old 11-14-2017, 06:17 PM
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It's a brand new, straight up timing set, not ruling it out, but I have my doubts, I will attempt to ground out coil and crank when I get another set of hands. It used to be real bad, with a smaller 790cca battery. To the point it would drain battery trying to turn over and cables would be silly hot from battery. Since then, I've put the bigger battery in, and upgraded all my grounds and power cables to starter. Now it's got enough power that it won't leave me stranded trying to crank it, but I know it's a band aid. Some problems I've experienced in the past were a fried pcm, replaced with a nos motorcraft part, and for a streak one year, I went through 15-20 starter solenoids as they were internally welding themselves. Starter upgrade helped a bit too, but I think I'm covering up a problem. I know one test we pulled vacuum off dizzy while cranking, but can't remember the results.....
 
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Old 11-14-2017, 07:17 PM
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Isn't 14 Degrees a lot of initial timing for a 460. Don't know for sure but I thought stock was about 8 degrees or so.

Why not back the timing off a bit and try to start it?
 
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Old 11-15-2017, 02:38 AM
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Dizzy is recurved and cam was ground specifically for it, the guy knows his stuff, and had me set initial timing at 14-17 degrees. I've tested your theory, because yes, it seems an advanced ignition problem, ive had it down to 10 degrees and engine was choppy, made less power, and had the same problem.
 
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Old 11-15-2017, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by crucialprospect View Post
I swapped in a planetary starter from a newer ford
I'm not familiar with this type of starter. I want to make sure I understand before suggesting a course of action.

Is the wiring the same as the original? As built, power on/off to the starter was controlled by the fender-mounted starter relay. Battery power was not present at the starter until the big relay was closed. I vaguely remember the planetary style was different, more similar to a GM style solenoid right on the starter itself. Battery power is always present at the starter. Maybe I'm out in left field, but want to make sure I correctly understand the power routing.

How reliably can you duplicate the problem of slow cranking? Can you get it to act up in the comfort of your driveway? Or is this an intermittent problem that only shows up at the worst times, such as right after knocking over a liquor store?
 
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Old 11-15-2017, 07:11 AM
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Wiring is the same as factory, this model came with a direct drive starter, which is not gear reduction, the planetary is gear reduced to have more torque. Or so I've been told. It only seems to do it when hot, and is intermittent. Depends on the direction the wind is blowing...but it always has a hard time cranking at the least opportune moments....
 
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Old 11-15-2017, 07:29 AM
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Originally Posted by crucialprospect View Post
Wiring is the same as factory

It only seems to do it when hot, and is intermittent. Depends on the direction the wind is blowing..
Chasing an intermittent fault can be a test of your patience. All I can suggest is duplicating the fault conditions as best as possible and run this test:

https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1...w-starter.html

For the hot fault, does it happen if you restart immediately after shutdown? Or only after sitting for 20 minutes or so? If the latter, stress the system by keeping the hood closed until ready to run the tests. If you had the hood open, things will cool off much faster and behave when you really want the fault present. Heck, it wouldn’t hurt to point a heat lamp at the starter to reduce normal cooling.
 
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Old 11-15-2017, 09:37 AM
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It's really seeming to be a heat soak issue, it's a restart up to 20 minutes after shutting off that I get the problem, but now that it's 40 degrees cooler, you'd think the problem would not persist after a short drive, but it does. I don't want to throw parts at it to solve the problem, I've replaced most of the electrical due to age and condition, so I'm going to continue to test and try to duplicate. The fact that it comes and goes is the worst!
 
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Old 11-15-2017, 09:51 AM
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Your post was both informing and comedic. I will try some of these tests when I get home and post up results, thank you sir!
 
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Old 11-15-2017, 10:02 AM
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Based on the testing, in my instance, all I should be concerned about is voltage from battery to starter and grounds. In a no start condition with no other variables, if I should supply all 14.4 volts to the starter and will not fix slow start, I can then eliminate all electrical instances. Now by supplying 14.4v directly to starter with a slow crank, my next testing would be to test starter. Now here lies the issue, IF the starter is going bad, so I replace it, but why is the starter going bad, heat, compression, crap Chinese starters? I'd like to rule out timing, but for science sake, I won't. Not trying to assume anything here as I will gladly perform the voltage drop test tonight, and I can only hope that is the issue, because that would be the quick easy fix!
 
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Old 11-15-2017, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by crucialprospect View Post
IF the starter is going bad, so I replace it, but why is the starter going bad, heat, compression, crap Chinese starters?

What brand is the starter? Fling Dung? Some Chinese stuff is really sad, unfortunately. I've cut apart some failed Chinese stuff and the (lack of) quality was shocking. Don't just rush out and replace the starter, though. Run those tests to confirm two important things:

1) The battery is capable of supplying the massive current flow required by the starter. This is done by measuring the voltage at the battery while cranking the engine for 15 seconds. Don't forget the ignition must be disabled because you don't actually want the engine to start. Also, the battery must be fully charged for this test, so put it on a charger to be sure. Normal driving, especially in the winter with the heater and lights on, isn't always enough to keep the battery topped off.

2) The rest of the starter circuit (positive and negative cables, starter relay, and all connections) must be capable of delivering that same rush of current flow. This is done by measuring the voltage drop end-to-end on each side of the circuit. This is the voodoo test that seems to scare people, but oy vey, if you follow the directions, you can find faults that defy all other troubleshooting.




Originally Posted by crucialprospect View Post
I'd like to rule out timing, but for science sake, I won't.

Good, good. Keep in mind you are now troubleshooting the slow cranking fault, not necessarily the no-start fault. Once you fix the slow cranking, the no-start should take care of itself. Keep the ignition disabled the whole time to rule out that the poor starter system is fighting too much timing advance.

If you try and try and try to duplicate the slow cranking but can't get it to act up again, then you could reactivate the ignition and see if the fault returns.

Remember these faults are often a combination of things. A warm engine has higher compression, too, and so the starter consumes more energy. Things might check good cold but not when warm.

Verifying a bad starter is not exact science, unfortunately. It's more a process of elimination. Considering the engine often cranks fine when warm, it's HIGHLY unlikely you've got an intermittent condition causing internal binding. So if you're able to duplicate the slow cranking AND the tests of the battery and rest of the starter circuit check fine when this happens, the starter is almost guaranteed to be your culprit.
 
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